A Queer Conversation
A traditional nun and her openly gay cousin discuss sexuality and the Catholic Church
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PM: It was probably not the time or the place, right? The first meeting. [laughter]
SB: It’s Pharisaical.
PM: “He could just leave. I’d be happy if it was just you, Paul.” [laughter]
SB: “Yeah, I’ll have dinner with you on the condition that…” It’s extremely Pharisaical, I think, in the sense that the Pharisees would not associate with someone “outside of the law.” Well, in this case this would be considered someone — in Church terms — who can’t receive communion. You’re outside of the body that’s in union with Christ.
PM: But Jesus did all the time.
SB: That’s the whole thing. That is the whole thing. And what did he do. He sat down and he shared a meal with them. He entered into a relationship with them, got to know them first.
BH: So do you remember, when you sat down and shared your meal with Paul and his partner, what was going through your mind? You said when you first got there it was like, “This is different.” It sounds like you eventually came to a point of being comfortable.
SB: Yeah it just became normal. The way that I thought of it was, look, just be as if I was with my brothers. That’s it. When I walked in and saw Paul’s partner cooking, I mean it was like, the most normal thing in the world, you know? And I knew that their relationship per se, regardless of what I believe — they’re friends. They’re a couple. And I need to respect that. That is their choice, and a huge amount of respect is due here rather than, “Excuse me, but let me tell you — .” [laughs]
SB: “The Pharisees would not associate with someone “outside of the law.” Well, in this case this would be considered someone — in Church terms — who can’t receive communion. You’re outside of the body that’s in union with Christ.
PM: But Jesus did all the time.
SB: That’s the whole thing. That is the whole thing. And what did he do. He sat down and he shared a meal with them. He entered into a relationship with them, got to know them first.
PM: I think that helped me. I’m just thinking about what you were saying about a relationship. You know, I would kind of pray about it and talk to God, ask God: “Is this okay? I feel like I’m gay, and this is how I’m born and how I’m intended to be. Is this all right?” I kind of went through that. You know, once I was in a relationship with somebody and it was based on mutual respect and sharing and love, I thought now there’s no way God can be looking down and saying, “Nope, I don’t approve of that. That’s not healthy, that’s not good.” I thought if two people were loving each other with respect and sharing, I just couldn’t see how that could be any worse than a man and a woman doing the exact same thing. So I’m glad she noticed that it was just two people instead of two men instead of a man and a woman.
BH: Do you remember that first night when she was coming over, did you have any thoughts? Did you have to talk to your partner and prepare him that your cousin was a nun?
PM: Well, it was a little odd compared to somebody who is religious meeting my partner for the first time. But you know, I think when you’re gay you’re in a minority situation so often that you kind of just get over feeling uncomfortable because it happens every day of your life. Any time you’re a minority or anytime people are judging you, you have to deal with that. So I think after a while you become a little more numb and it’s not a major issue anymore.
BH: Sister Bernadette, as a woman religious, is in a minority, too. What was it like when you went out and walked around New York together?
PM: Well people always take a second look at her because she’s dressed differently. And you wonder what’s going through their head. Are they thinking, “Oh how nice, that’s a nun,” or, “What is she doing?” And I don’t know if they’re judging her negatively or they’re just curious.
BH: Were you worried you were going to be seen by friends who wouldn’t understand your faith background, or your family, or anything like that?
PM: Well I don’t really care. My relationship with her is more important than what somebody thinks about it. If they don’t like it, that’s too bad. I’m going to be seen with her. And again, it’s just easier for me to be who I am and not worry about what other people think because I’ve had to deal with it along the way.
SB: Actually, it’s interesting that you’ve picked up on the fact that the form of sexuality that I’ve chosen to live is also outside the norm. And it is. And many people don’t understand why someone young, intelligent and attractive would ever choose a life of celibacy. So I think for myself, coming to terms with the fact that I wasn’t called to the norm, either, could have perhaps made me a bit more sensitive. As a heterosexual woman it’s hard to explain to some people that if I picture myself with a husband and children in a house, I would feel locked-in, I would feel limited, whereas people who see my life in the convent are probably thinking the same thing, you know what I mean? [laughs] And yet I feel very free. The way I choose to express my sexuality — in a celibate manner — is not the norm.
BH: I think we could make an argument that, in 2009, it’s probably a smaller minority than being homosexual. And in a sexualized culture it might be considered more marginal.
SB: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And the fact that it’s something that I, too, struggle with. And getting back to integration, I think that there are so many ways that we keep things from ourselves, even, and the whole thing about integration is that I allow myself to be as aware of my thinking processes, the, like [snaps fingers], automatic reactions that I have to things, and starting to look at them and judge them and be able to name them, even the things that I feel embarrassed about, the things that make me behave in ways that I normally wouldn’t choose. Because that’s probably a manifestation of something that’s even more true to myself that I’ve chosen to separate myself from, or is some unconscious pattern or thought process that I’ve never allowed to come to consciousness but is being acted out because it’s been repressed.
PM: Do you mean, like, prejudice, for example? Like that kind of a reaction your father had?
SB: Yes. Oh, definitely. Right. [laughs]
PM: Sure, it could have come in part from how you were brought up. And the way I was brought up, too.
SB: Yeah. So why would I have to be defensive to you, Paul? If I’m not comfortable with my own sexuality, then I would probably take on a more defensive role toward you because I would have to somehow convince myself of my own integration. That’s not a word that’s normally used, but — I think we’re living a mystery. You know, we really are a mystery.
And another thing we have to remember is that we’re living in a world that God created, but there’s a reality his world that he did not intend for us to live with, and that’s the whole area of sin and evil and concupiscence that we are born with and that leads us to choose actions that, according to the Church’s teaching, are not God’s will. And we’re not living in that ideal world that God created. We have to constantly remember that. And so how do we recover that lost innocence?
That’s what the Church is all about. And why She presents ideals, which would be the Commandments and rules like “sexuality should only be expressed within a marriage commitment between a man and a woman.” And why the Church is calling us to that is because that’s what She sees as being the way that God intended us to live. That’s true. On the other hand we have this whole other reality of concupiscence, and the culture. And even like Paul was saying, the way that he feels this is how he’s been created at some level, you know. His attractions lie differently than mine. I don’t know what that’s like.
BH: Does that mess with your sense of moral order?
SB: I do believe that the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit, and really does truly seek to know what God’s will is for us. And then you have this whole other reality of human experience that makes the clarity just fall away. And I’m in a position now where I really believe that God is extremely active in the midst of each of our lives, no matter what choices we make, and that he will guide each of his children to communion with Him, even with this mess. With the mess that I bring him, even though I look like I’m living a life that the Church has blessed.
At the level of sexuality I struggle with my own urges, desires, fantasies, imagination. There’s no button that just turns everything off. And how do I integrate my vow of chastity with my sisters at home? In the way I speak with them, do I objectify them? Do I use my sisters to get what I want?
BH: That’s breaking the vow of chastity?
SB: Well it has to do with charity. Chastity is all about relationships.
BH: Not about sex?
SB: Not necessarily. Chastity in religious life is about not having an exclusive relationship with anyone. This includes not being in a relationship in which sexual activity takes place because the only licit type of sexual activity is that which is exercised within the exclusive relationship of marriage. No, chastity is all about how I enter into relationship with others — and see, that’s where it really challenges me. How do I interact with people? Am I genuine? Am I open? Am I loving? Am I being the person that God — Jesus would be, right now, with this person. Or am I using them for something that I want, even if it’s to somehow pat me on the back. But there are all kinds of things that enter in, not just if I’m having sex with someone or not. There’s this whole other layer.
BH: So has that had any consequences with you beyond your family and in your community?
SB: You know, I have really been amazed because when I told my community that I was going over to Paul’s house they asked “Oh, how is he?” Well there’s got to be a way at some point that his partner is going to come in the picture. And so I just told them. And some of them I could tell would never have been able to do what I did. However, after almost a year on Memorial Day we had a picnic at our convent and I asked my community if I could invite Paul’s partner because Paul was going to be away, and from what I had understood, his partner didn’t have a place to go. And so I asked if they would mind if he could come over. The community had absolutely no problem — we would have done this with any member of our family. He came over, he said he felt at home. Some of our brother priests were there. One of them also spoke French so they got along right away. And he really did, I think, feel very, very welcomed; the issue did not come up at all. Every member of my community understood who he was.
PM: Well how relevant would that have been at a Memorial Day picnic? “So [claps hands], you’re having sex with a guy these days?” [laughter] I mean, doesn’t that sound ridiculous? Like, why would that be an issue for them, if you think about it.
SB: And I told them that he’s a member of my family. That’s how I presented it. “This is my cousin Paul’s partner. For me, he’s a member of my family. He’s going to be alone. Can I please invite him over?” Nobody batted an eye.
I really have been amazed at the level of normalcy. No one in my community brought it up with me afterward, although one of the sisters said something to me at one point about not understanding why I go over to Paul’s house.
PM: Well you know if you put a face or a relationship with the issue, then it’s harder to outwardly speak against, I think. They know that I’m important to Mary, so for them to say, “Oh, homosexuality is terrible,” you know, it’s harder for them to do that because now they see that this is important to her. This isn’t just some Church teaching —
SB: And maybe it was my lead that helped them do that.
PM: So maybe it did help them a little bit to feel differently —
SB: I never thought about that.
BH: I’ve got to imagine, though, that there’s a disconnect for some of them between what they know, or they’ve been taught to be true and what they’re seeing in front of them. That can’t be easy…
PM: No, but I’m sure it challenged them to question what they had been taught. I think questioning is good. Anytime you challenge yourself you’re forced to decide, “Am I okay with what I think? Do I need to adapt my thinking?” I think that’s healthy, just questioning.
SB: And I think at the level of conscience, I mean, conscience is a huge area where even the Church recognizes that a person’s conscience must be followed regarding moral choices. And yes, the Church does say that we do need to inform our conscience and form it according to divine law — so if I’m Catholic I’m going to find out what the Catholic Church teaches. Again, I don’t know what it’s like to have been drawn to a homosexual lifestyle and to have that reality to deal with in my conscience along with the teaching of the Church.
BH: You believe people are born this way.
SB: See, I would not even be able to make a judgment.
PM: Well, who would choose to be gay? You know? So, yeah, of course we’re born that way. But like you say, Mary, you don’t know how it feels so it’s hard for you to say —
SB: — Right. Although I know what it feels like for me to know beyond the shadow of a doubt that I’m called to celibate life — this is more in the area of sexual identity. However, for me, my sexual identity and therefore, my conscience, coincided with the Church’s teaching on sexuality.
PM: Right. People don’t understand the calling.
SB: Exactly. And it doesn’t matter what people think. For me to live in this way is the only way and to violate that would be, for me, a huge — like, turning against myself — or a betrayal of myself. And if that’s true for me, I can only imagine that must be true for Paul. And so this is where the dilemma arises. I, too, am concerned about Paul’s salvation, just as I am my own and everyone else’s. However, I understand that the choices I make and those that others make differ based on background, level of instruction in the area of the Church’s moral teachings, sexual orientation, where someone is at in their spiritual life — things like that. We all deal with the “disorder” that the Church talks about — that is, the drive that is in us due to original sin toward actions that are not in accord with natural law or God’s law. The call is to live out our sexuality, like all other areas of life, in a way that is consistent with the following of Christ. It is a process that everyone needs to go through — celibates, heterosexuals, gays, lesbians, bisexuals — everyone.
PM: Well, just continuing on that theme: you know, so many leaders of the Catholic Church are white men, but they’re making decisions — again, we hope, inspired by the Holy Spirit — but they make all these decisions that impact everybody. Black people, gay people, women. And again, do they know what it feels like to be a woman? Can they tell a woman to do this or to do that; do they know what it feels like to be married with children? Do they know what it feels like to be a racial minority? Do they know what it feels like to be lesbian? So I think — you know, you look at the very small part of the population that feels they were born male but they have a female body. Does it seem odd to me? Yes. Can I understand it? No. Do I judge them? Absolutely not. You know, I think if you feel that strongly that you’re willing to go through, like, a sex change for example, it must be pretty powerful. I think, yeah, we’re all born different — I don’t know why.
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Great article! I converted to Catholicism only recently, having been raised entirely without religion. I’d always lived in places where gay people generally felt safe in identifying themselves. That always struck me as just and fitting. Conscious that I was choosing churches in the middle of a culture war, I wrote off evangelical Protestantism largely because so many fundie churches took such a hard — frankly, a brutal — line against homosexuality. They seemed obsessed with pushing gays back in the closet. Although I hadn’t researched the Catholic Church’s own position very closely, the statements I’d heard coming from Catholic quarters sounded markedly mellower.
“Yeah, homosexual relations may be sinful,” Catholics seemed to say. “But there’s no call to jump on gays with hobnailed boots. We tried that with Cathars and marranos, and we’ve been apologizing for it ever since.”
Well, now that I understand the Church’s teachings better (hat tip to the boys in the black cappas, who stirred great dollops of Thomistic philosophy into my catechesis), I still think there’s a certain sophistication in it. Unlike so many of her Protestant competitors, the Church at least acknowledges that same-sex inclinations are deep-seated. No one walks into a Catholic church expecting to have his gay prayed away. To me, that’s something to build on, although I can certainly understand why Fr. Nugent wouldn’t see it that way.
A couple of months ago, at a vocational discernment retreat, I found myself paired for an Emmaus walk with an exuberant sister who would have looked perfectly at home working security at the Lilith Fair. To my feeble senses, at least, she also had Christ’s own light oozing from every pore. It seems to me — pace His Holiness — that God calls all kinds.
To Sister Bernadette and Paul, congratulations on forming such a close, honest friendship. Thank you for sharing your experiences with us.
regarding the Church’s language with respect to homosexuality …this may seem like I’m splitting hairs …one should be careful to distinquish between the acts and the individual. The Church does not condemn individuals who identify themselves as gay. And, there is a distinction between cultural responses and a Christian response. Cultural responses to an individual identifying himself as gay have adopted terms found in the Church’s teaching that would be hurtful or unwelcoming to the person.
These are sensitive issues and the Church isn’t dumb about cultural cultural shifts. I think its those, who live in today’s culture, who should read carefully what the Church teaches; otherwise the issue becomes clouded; and misconceptions do breed, in a not insignificant way, hurt feelings, damaged relationships, rejection, etc. that gays really do suffer, that are deeply felt.
Responses should be compassionate and not judgemental. This is difficult to do for some people. We’ve been taught forever that being a true disciple of Christ is difficult. We don’t get to choose how our faith is tested; we do get to choose how we respond. If we claim we are Christian, if we claim that we follow Christ Jesus, we have no other option than to respond with compassion.
I find it dangerous that someone who knows who to articulate so clearly the natural law could then discontent it from Jesus, who is the Logos or the Word behind our recognition of the natural law, who in turn commissions us to preach his truth. In the end, she was not even able to say that her cousin was doing something wrong, as she already decided for incorrect pastoral reasons not to say that his behavior was disordered.
Rather than teach her cousin basic fundamental philosophical concepts, she basically claims that he is unable to comprehend them. She thereby enters into a relationship with her cousin and his partner, which she sees no differences between that of a man and a woman, without first acknowledging that homosexual acts are always a sin, as they are intrinsically evil. She thereby becomes materially complicit with her cousin’s sin by mistakenly thinking that she would not be accepting him as a person if she were merely to acknowledge his sin.
Her mistaken kindness in type takes Jesus of the Cross, as Jesus would always affirm the worth of the individual by calling first for his repentance. I can’t believe that her cousin would renounce a soul like this if she were to witness to the truth that Jesus died for his sins so that he may achieve salvation. We all need help. This is the most important help. Rather, out of mistaken kindness, she condones his actions and effectually normalizes them thereby providing a material cause for them to continue. That may be too philosophical. But study is the surest means in making the examined life really examined.
T+
Interesting that there is a need for this article, but not an interview with a hetero couple living together outside of married (shacking up ala Dr. Laura).
Are we called upon to at a dinner tell the friend that are a sinner. NO. Is it any of our biz who is sleeping with whom or even IF they are?
This article shows a relationship that has the “love the sinner” part of the equation down. It seems to forget to “hate the sin” though.
Though I thought the article was good, I can’t help but feel that Sr. Bernadette left out the teaching of the Church… I think it is important to welcome everyone into the Church, and to not be judgmental; however, we cannot deny that homosexual acts are sinful, at least that’s what I thought the Church’s position was, and she completely ignores it.
After reading the article, while I’m glad they are able to have such a good relationship, I feel that she as a Sister is obligated morally to at least mention to her cousin the Church’s position, which should be her position as well… just so he know that while she loves him, and is not judgmental, she still abides by the Church’s law.
Also, to anyone reading this article that does not know the position of the Church, the feel of it is that there’s nothing wrong with homosexuality and that the “misunderstandings” come from an outdated language used by the Church…. and that is a very serious message to be spreading, and it’s uncharitable to mislead people that way
I believe a simple element was overlooked. The Church calls those with homeoerotic inclinations to be celibate. Sister Bernadette is not shy about her celibacy. It seems to me that Paul should take this lesson from his cousin.
As to his partner, do any of us know what passes between them? It is a matter for his confessor, not for any buttinsky.
Gore Vidal, when asked to what he attributed the length of his relationship with partner [40 years to death] replied simply: “No sex”.
What if this article were instead about a nun and her relationship with a brother who, with his wife, had elected to used the birth control pill within their marriage? Would commenters be so insistent that Sr. Bernadette condemn their practice?
Re: PhoenixRoach
Probably.
A wonderful interview. My question for those who are telling Paul that he should obey The Church’s teaching is to please keep in mind that he no longer identifies as or worships in the Catholic church, so why do you insist he is bound by their teachings?
What I don’t understand is why so many people get excited and scream about someone being gay, and yet, people eat pork. People eat others foods that the Old Testament prohibits. Is anyone making a fuss about adultery? People commit adultery almost everyday. It doesn’t have to be a sexual act. Do we really want to stone people who commit adultery? Slavery was acceptable in the Old Testament. The Bible prohibits the mixing of cloth. How many people wear 100% wool or 100% cotton today?
The New American Bible translates the Greek word “arsenokoitai” as “practicing homosexuals.” The concept of practicing homosexuals is something that the Catholic Church created in the 1970s. This distinction is not found in the first- century writings. Also the Greek word “arseno”refers to men or males. It doesn’t say anything about women.
I think people need to research what the Bible really says. This may mean some language study, look at why the chapter book was written, who wrote it, and examine the the changes in key words over the years.
I do not see being gay as a sin, but I do know that we are all sinners. My Bible tells me not to “judge” others. In my opinion, whether one is trying to distinguish beween the person or the act, one is still making a judgment. And judging others is sinful!
Having a son that i homosexual I feel very stongly about this. I knew when he was very young that he was not a hetrosexual. The funny part of our relationship is the is that he was angry with me for not telling him he was gay…. I countered with …. I thought you should tell me….. what if I had been wrong. We both laugh about it still…
I realize this isn’t a discussion board, but reading all these thoughtful comments made me want to add something.
A few weeks ago, Tony Blair advised Pope Benedict to soften the Church’s position on homosexuality. Not only would it be humane, he argued, it would make Church teaching more palatable for laid-back, non-judgmental, left-ish, educated people — that is, for people like him.
Well, speaking as a native of that social estate (and as someone who wouldn’t himself mind seeing the Church ease up on gayness, somehow), I’m surprised that any world leader should be so insular. Laid-back, non-judgmental, left-ish educaetd people may make up a slender majority in Western countries, but outside of that bubble, our opinions don’t amount to a hill of beans.
For anyone trying to run a universal Church, this is important to bear in mind. Unless I’m mistaken, the Church is growing fastest in the sort of backwaters where neither I nor Tony would ever dream of vacationing. In West Africa, for example, people worry as much about gay rights as they do about snowstorms. Our chief competitors, Sarah Palin-type Protestantism and Osama bin Laden-type Islam, aren’t exactly known for their warm and fuzzy gay outreach ministries.
By contrast, the Episcopalian Church of the U.S.A. has been crumbling from the inside ever since it ordained an openly gay bishop. Conservative Episcopalians, who had held fast to their faith despite rules allowing priests to perform same-sex unions, have finally had enough. Many are fleeing to the more traditional Anglican Communion of the Southern Cone. (Yes, that’s right: old-school Episcopalians are begging Ugandans to give them their marching orders; this is serious.) Others, if you can believe it, are coming back to Rome, which has probably but a big smirk on St. Thomas More’s face.
My point is not that Church doctrine should be determined by popular ballot, or adjusted to meet some perceived marketing need. I mean only to suggest that guys like me and Tony Blair, who take such pride in our rational, modern, non-cavemanish thinking, ought to forgive the Church for not catching up with us. We may be hip, but she’s universal and eternal.
Thank you so much for this article. I am also a recent convert, understand the Church’s teachings about homosexuality, but have been struggling because I have a close family member who is gay. It is nice to see a Catholic, particularly in a religious community, who is maintaining a friendship with a gay person.
Like Sr Bernadette, I am a religious sister in a traditional congregation, facing a similar situation, only in my case, the gay family member is my sister. I entered the convent when she was in first grade, so our relationship is somewhat distant. In addition, I am aware of psychological aspects to my sister’s affective needs that no amount of preaching could possibly help. This is not primarily a moral disorder; at least in her case. But I have wondered if I have a duty in faith to “say something” to her. Some of the comments to this post triggered a great deal of anxiety in me in that regard, so I had to reflect on the question in a more specific way.
I had the good fortune to study moral theology under Fr. John Hardon, SJ. Now, I don’t have my notes any more, so I can’t be certain I learned this principle from him, but I did learn it in very orthodox surroundings, so I believe it is entirely trustworthy. The principle is that it would be wrong to burden a person’s conscience with greater responsibility than they are disposed to correspond to. For example, telling someone who doesn’t attend Mass regularly that missing Mass is a mortal sin when that person is unaware of that, yet not disposed to change their ways–you’d be, in effect, endangering their spiritual welfare more, not helping lead them to grace. It’s all in the ability of the person to receive the truth in grace.
As a religious sister, I am ready to share the beautiful truth of the Church’s teachings on human love in the divine plan with those who are disposed to hear it. But with those who are not, I treat this the way the early Church treated the mystery of the Eucharist: the truth of the Eucharist was reserved for those who were ready to actually receive Communion. And those who were drawn by grace to the Eucharist walked a long pathway of initiation that prepared them to fruitfully receive that Blessed Sacrament. Telling someone who is already confused, hurt and alienated from the Church that they are in a situation of objective sin is only adding fuel to a fire that is burning against the great good that we have in Catholic teachings on human love. We need to draw people to a great good, and how one does that is going to depend greatly on the persons in question.
Speaking for myself (and knowing the gifts I do and do not have), it seems to me that in the case of my sister and other persons who are struggling with same-sex attraction, I follow Jesus first of all by receiving them as children of God, loved here and now. (As someone who lives celibately, it comes somewhat naturally for me not to dwell on the sexual details that may or may not be part of their life…) As the relationship develops, and as I pray for these people by name, I trust God’s grace to lead them to desire something “more”; to desire a deeper life of communion with the Church; to be drawn to a more pure way of loving. And I am ready to help them find that.
I also highly recommend Courage, a wonderful fellowship of holiness and support for people with same-sex attraction who make use of all the spiritual means the Church offers to grow in holiness and chastity. I love that friendship and the recognition of everyone’s need for human love is central to Courage’s approach.
This is one smart Sister. I think when the Church says unnatural it means that they don’t quite understand it yet, but we’re understanding more and more that you are indeed born gay. How would you know whether being gay is real if you are a heterosexual? Also, they say if you have “deep rooted” homosexual feelings you should be celibate and/or a priest/nun, but if God intended for his children who are gay to be celibate why would he give them those sexual feeling at all? Homosexuality isn’t just a feeling, is hetrosexuality just a feeling? A desire to share your life with a spouse? Both hetro and homosexuality are gifts from the Creator.
Yes, we are called to love the sinner, but we are also called to hate the sin! Jesus did spend time with sinners, but he also exhorted them to “sin no more”. This article is implying that the Church’s teaching on sexuality is wrong. This is supposed to be a Catholic website. It would be nice if they actually defended the Church instead of just giving in to the culture around them.
For a much better discussion of compassion for sinners, see here:
http://www.catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=33803
hello to all of you guys,
I stumbled on this great site. Am going through a dark night of the soul and it was no chance I ended up here. Look forward to reading all the info and posts.
As a reletively new Catholic, I feel that we need to pray on our feelings and stop judging people for who and what they are. We are a diverse culture and need to celebrate God’a gift of Diversity. I am gay and am in a loving relationship of 1 year. My partner is a lifelong Catholic and feels the same way I do. We have found that the offshoot Independant Catholic movement accepts and celebrates our relationship. We are all entitled to our own opinion, but we all need to try to be open to differing viewpoints and not try to shove our own down someone else’s throat. I am Parish Administrator for a small Independant Catholic Church in the Midwest and am studing for the priesthood in this church. I believe in God’s love for all, and that He created us all in His image, gay, straight, male, female… CELEBRATE!!!!!!
God’s Blessings on all who read this.
Super article. I think Sister Bernadette approach is truly loving and reverent of teaching. It’s a tough to follow the call to chastity, but it all Catholics should realize that chastity may be the best protection for sins of a sexual nature, but in no way can we hold most people to its practice.
This is a most beautiful interview. And it has been very interesting reading the various posts. I am a practicing Catholic and I would like to say this straight out for many Catholics – gay or straight – who feel the same but dare not say it: The Catholic Church’s current teaching on homosexuality is WRONG.
The Church has been wrong on very significant issues before — such as the pre-Vatican II belief that “there is no salvation outside the Church” to “there IS salvation outside the Church” — the new view held after Vatican II.
The Church forced Galileo to recant his views on the universe, and no less than Pope John Paul II apologized for this.
I am confident that the Church — in 50 years or perhaps 100 years down the road — will similarly change its teaching on homosexuality. And perhaps another pope will apologize for the way the Church has treated gays.
Does anyone read the Catechism????…
(emphasis my own)
Chapter 2 Article 6 Pg.2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, WHICH PRESENTS HOMOSEXUALITY ACTS AS ACTS OF GRAVE DEPRAVITY,140 tradition has always declared that “HOMOSEXUAL ACTS ARE INTRINSICALLY DISORDERED.”141 THEY ARE CONTRARY TO THE NATURAL LAW. THEY CLOSE4 THE SEXUAL ACT TO THE GIFT OF LIFE. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity.
(and the clincher…)
UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES CAN THEY BE APPROVED.
Further reading in the same paragraph:
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
2359 HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS ARE CALLED TO CHASTITY. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
This is our faith people. It’s not black and white. The Church (and Jesus!!!) have been teaching the SAME thing for over 2000 years. Love it or leave it.
KV,
First of all the Galileo affair was caused by Galileo’s insistance that some biblical passages should be changed, not because of Galileo’s scientific findings. Although Galileo was treated wrongly, the affair was not a doctrinal one. The church has NEVER changed a piece of doctrine and never will. Issues between certian members of the church and eclestiatical authorities is a different thing all together.
The church has upheld for 2000 years the sanctity of marriage (which can only happen between a man and a women) and sex. The church firmly teaches that although we are always to love the sinner and hate the sin, sodomy and homosexual acts are mortal (or deadly) sins and should not be encouraged by any means.
To hear it from the “horses mouth” please read Article 6 of the Cathecism of the Catholic Church paragraphs 2357-2359.
Some of my Muslim friends also believe what some people above said, “we are called to love the sinner, but we are also called to hate the sin”
and some of my Christian friends agree with the following statement, “HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS ARE CALLED TO CHASTITY.”
Many of my Muslim, Catholic, and Christian friends disagree with both statements above. Speaking as a lesbian Catholic woman, I do not believe that love–by love I refer to spiritual, emotional, and physical love–belongs to those who are “straight” or whatnot. Love belongs to everyone, it is not a privilege that can be given to some and not others. Chastity is also a very courageous act for straight and LGBTQ people who choose this for themselves, not because they are told by others. God’s gift of love is for all, and I’m thankful that I’m blessed with the courage to give and receive love.
Violeta-
No one is saying that the homosexual person cannot love but it is disordered to give into a perverse love such as homosexuality. People are meant by God to be together as man and woman as husband and wife, anything else is a sin and a perversion of true nuptial love.
I feel for those who have homosexual orientations but God and our church put sexuality in a very sacred and serious spotlight. You can not be a faithful Catholic and devulge yourself in a homosexual lifestyle. It’s one thing if you are struggling with your temptations and trying to overcome, it’s another thing to say that such a lifestyle is OK and that the church just needs to “get with the times”. Our church makes it excedingly clear that Homosexual actions are a sin (period). This has been revealed by God from the beginining of time, I assure you it will not change anytime soon. In fact, the very structure of our church reveals intimatly a man/woman relationship. We cannot understand Christ the Bridegroom and the Church the bride in homosexual deminsions. As Christopher West explains, in a “bride/bride” situation which would happen with a female priesthood, the relationship of the church is defiled. Such unions do not bring about a conjecal union, thay are instead fruitless and a henious sin before God.
Wonderful interview. I am so glad I happened upon it. I learned more about compassion, love, and faith from Sr. Bernadette’s statements than any cut and paste cyber apologist could ever offer. It is Catholics and religious like Sr. Bernadette that give me hope for the future of the Church.
Thank you and God bless you Sr. Bernadette and Paul.
Thank you everyone who pointed out that this man is not a practicing Catholic. So, there is no need to debate if he is following the Catholic teachings or not.
And does the whole gay thing really affect the world in such a negative way? Don’t we–as humans, as Catholics–have real evils to fight?
Hey, I don’t claim to be the best Catholic around.
Alycia
‘Fruitless’ unions?
So the two women in my church who have been together for 15 years, and who are now giving a loving home to a daughter who had been in foster care for 8 years have a fruitless relationship? Am I imagining the love and care they clearly have for each other, for our church community, and for their beloved daughter?
Then there is the gay couple whose sons are leaders in the high school youth group, who devote countless hours of their own to being lectors, sacristans, and liturgy planners. How is their union fruitless? How is their service a heinous sin? How is their care and devotion for their family and their church a perversion?
I cannot connect what I see with my own eyes with what you are saying. These are faithful Catholics – most of them better Catholics than I will ever be. God made them as they are, and God doesn’t seem to be rejecting their love and service to others. Why should we?
My 22-year-old son recently came out to me as a bisexual (not that it was a surprise to me). I am a faithful Catholic and a mom who loves her son with all her heart. My reaction was to make sure he knows I love him forever and nothing he could do/say could change that fact.
That said, I am concerned for the state of his soul. He made a break from the Church a few years ago, and doesn’t seem to have much of a faith at the moment. I decided to simply keep praying for him, and leave his soul and conversion to God. So far, I have peace with this approach – we’ll see.
All I can say is that I hope none of you ever have to go through the process of deciding if you are gay or not. It is not an easy process to come out and admit. I have talked to many people who are homosexual. Their sexuality is not a disorder or abnoral any more than it is for a hetrosexual to want to have sex with a person of the opposit sex. it is very normal for them to have feelings for a person of the same sex. I don’t mean this in a bad way, but who in their right mind would choose to be gay with all the bashing and bad things that are said about them? Many of them can not live a “normal” life because they will lose a job or something far worse. Who wants to be a target of someone else’s hate? A homosexual is born that way. It is not a learned behavior. If that is the case did God make a mistake when He created gay people? Afterall, we are all made in His image. Maybe the church doesn’t want to admit gay people because maybe it would mean thier God is gay too. I have never understood how the church can ask a gya person to be celebate and think that will feel like the church is accepting them. Perhaps, what the church should say is what it says about hetrosexual relationships: that it is only acceptable within the context of a married relationship. Oh, I forgot the church doesn’t accept gay marriage. If that is the case, then say a committed relationship. If people really tried to be more understanding rather than judgmental, there would be less discrimnation in the world today. I only wish that all of you who are trying to exclude gay people from the church could walk a day in their shoes. It would change your hole perspective. Gay people have a lot to offer out church. It is unfortunate that we unwilling to accept them and the gifts and talents that they could bring to our church.
Unfortunately, this is just more of the moral relativism that is typical of Busted Halo. Anyone looking for orthodox Church teachings had better look elsewhere.
It seems to me that many of us are willing to remember that we are to “hate the sin” but not many of us remember “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone.”
We are not the judges; God is. We are called by God to love. He can judge when the time is right.
Alycia,
Didn’t the Church once condemn the practice of Usury? Now there’s a Vatican Bank! Teaching does change as knowledge grows.
This article makes it appear that because this nun has a social, warm relationship with a gay man, it makes the church’s condemnation of gay people less painful. And don’t give me the “love the sinner but hate the sin routine. Isn’t anyone outraged by the fact that this church classifies gay people as disordered? That’s the one step above the current Pope’s classification of gays as “intrinsically evil” as written in that famous Halloween missive.
Gay people are no less disordered than straight people. They’re no less sinful and no more sinful because of what they are and how they feel. When the hierarchy from pope, to bishop, to pastor, priest and religious learn that God’s creation is varied and unlimited, they will learn that God doesn’t make mistakes. Our judgements of others who are different in their expressions of love is what makes so many Cahoics so un-Christian.
I found the nun to be somehat patronizing. “Oh goody, she accepts me as I am without being judgemental”. Oh, but she is.
I was surprised that the comparison between murder and gay sex wasn’t picked up on in the interview:
“The use of the words ‘unnatural, or disordered’ then, means that homosexual activity is an aberration. Other actions in which this language is employed is; for example, murder. It‚Äôs not natural for us to murder. It‚Äôs something that happens but inside all of us is something that says that that‚Äôs wrong. The Church teaches that homosexuality is on that same level, and that‚Äôs why they use the word ‘unnatural or disordered’ when explaining its position. Many people clearly see the unnaturalness of murder; it is harder for many to understand why homosexual acts, and other sexual acts, are unnatural.”
How does she reconcile lack of condemnation of gay sex with placing it in the same ballpark as murder and how does he reconcile that comparison with her claim of being non-judgmental? Very odd.
Years ago I walked away from the church due to its judgemental teachings. I am not “intrinsically evil.” I choose to live my life openly because that is who I am, how I was created. My relationship with my partner of 17 years is no less valid than any “marriage” between a man and woman. I don’t need the church’s approval of this, I have my own.
Today I express my spirituality outside the church. I believe in most of what christians profess but do not believe in what some may think is their God given right to demonize and condemn others for being different.
“I am not evil”… How self righteous and arrogant can one be? “There are none that do good, no not one”,This is a basic teachi He sent His Son to make us worthy. It is only by the grace & mercy of GOD that we become acceptable to Him.
The problem the gay individual has is that he is openly and defiantly challenging God’s will for us.See Romans 1:18-30….We all sin (none do good) when we humble ourselves and confess our sins, it is then our relationship with our mighty King can grow. To openly deny His truth, His will defining oneself by sin itself is not acceptable to a righteous and just God.
I really liked this articale, but I can’t believe some of these comments I thought that in the year 2010, more people would be more open-minded about gays. The Bible was written so long ago and we have come so far. It also states in the Bible that a woman on her period is “unclean” and should be made to sleep in a red tent, it also says that women should be veiled -do we still think that way today? Of course not, because we have (hopefully) learned that you cannot take a statement (made so many years ago) and use it to promote hate. Jesus never taught that. Being gay is not just about sex, it’s about people who fall in love with people who are the same gender. Simple as that. No one chooses to be gay (if you disagree please read something other than just the Bible and educate yourself), but you can choose to hate and be homophobic and I hardly think that God or Jesus would ever promote hate and fear. It is human nature to fear what we don’t understand and it is easier to be told what you views should be rather than form them yourself…which is sad. It is also the reason that people that people are being victimized by hate crimes. I just thought people were more evolved than that. Please think before you condemn and judge, treat people as you would like to be treated. During the Civil War people used the Bible to justify slavery… have we learned nothing from history? There are always going to be people that you will disagree with, but some of these comments defile the very purpose of Christianity. Bigots are the ones who need prayers not Gays, love is no crime. Sin is opinion, nothing more or less. What is sinful to me may not be sinful to you, and vice versa. If people continue this hate and fear they not only shame themselves but their God as well. If you are going to call yourself a Christian, then you should act like one. Plus this “hate the sin, but not the sinner” nonsense is just silly. I have no idea who came up with that phrase but it is just an excuse to hate, and something (I guess) to make Bigots feels less guilty about their own opinion which are posted quite boldly on this page. Open your mind and heart, that will (in my opinion) will make you a “Good Christian”.
Did I miss it? Did no one get the fact that he left the Church and found another non-denominational church and he’s OK with their services because he feels welcome there and not in the Catholic Church? What about the Eucharist? Didn’t Jesus tell us that unless we eat of his flesh and drink of his blood we cannot share in eternal life? If Sister Bernadette truly loves her cousin (and I believe that she does) something is definitely missing in her catchesis in watching her beloved relative forgo the reality of Christ present to us in the sacraments. Some thought provoking discussion but ultimately, not a very good portrayal of the true Catholic position.
I wish more Catholic families were this kind and accepting.
I am a “gay” man in a domestic partnership, but I don’t have an issue with traditional Catholic teaching on the subject. Who am I to say that my sexuality isn’t “intrinsically disordered”? Being a Catholic is about being in a God-revealed religion, where Jesus Christ handed down his teachings to the apostles and established a church.
The teaching on homosexuality is part of those teachings that were handed down. It comes from God. So who am I to say that God is wrong? Truthfully, I believe the homosexual condition is a neurosis, not an intrinsic human condition.
How can a person claim he is a practicing catholic if he/she doesn’t agree or follow the teaching of the Catholic Church?
Kudos to Sr. Bernadette for living out the Christian calling to, “love one another as I have loved you.” I feel a very special connection to the Church, as it provided me with my own religious and spiritual conversion; however, I think it would do every human being a lot of good to search for God’s presence in all things and in all people. Really assess your relationship with God and with the Church, don’t just regurgitate the doctrine to other people… We are all His children and deserve to be treated as such. I think we can all agree that we are all sinners. And, I do believe you can be Catholic and not follow every teaching of the Catholic Church: this is called being a human. I have yet to meet a Roman Catholic, clergy or not, who I feel embodies every teaching of the Church. Let’s remember our LGBT brothers and sisters in our prayers, as well as those who have chose a life of celibacy by taking vows in the Catholic Church. Peace and blessing to all!
Anna Teresa,
Actually, you can’t be a Catholic and not follow Church teaching. As a Catholic you must believe all of the truths the Catholic Church professes, otherwise you’re a heretic, and, assuming one refuses to repent, will go for Hell. QED
I have noted that there are many “everyone deserves such and such” statements from those opposed to the Church’s teaching, and they always justify their statements with the idea of “love.” Love is many things, one of them is chastity. Furthermore, Love cannot exist apart from the Truth. Therefore, any attempt to portray Sodomy, which is evil, as part of love, which is good, is lying. I strongly encourage all false “Catholics” to consider whether they actually love God if they will not obey their Father in Heaven.
I would also like to add that anyone who says Jesus “preached a Gospel of acceptance” is lying. Have you actually picked up the Gospel and read what he taught? He rebukes people; a lot. Why? Because they’re sinful. He doesn’t get into conversations like “do you think such and such is OK” about sins (which here would be basically like asking “how to you trick yourself into thinking that your perverted sexual acts are somehow remotely related to love”) because he already knows what they are doing is evil. Rather, he teaches what is right. That is charity, that is love, that is following Christ.
Good sentiments and “niceness” do not in any way necessarily mean love. The devil would be nice to you in order to tempt you, would he not? Satan doesn’t need to make you rebel directly against the truth – because you would never succeed a – all he needs is for you to be complacent about serving God and lull you into thinking you’re a “loving” person. So it is with evil.
These are hard teachings. The world offers you comfort, but you weren’t made for comfort, you were made for greatness. Be perfect as you Heavenly Father is perfect.
I am so sad to see that the Paulists are back-handedly promoting a perversion, a sin through this mans homosexual lifestyle and this religious sisters acceptance of it. This is why the Paulists AREN’T gaining vocations, only those who promote and teach the fullness of our Catholic faith prosper.
I encourage anyone who has a same-sex attraction to not give into this unfulfilling way of life and sin, but to please seek help. Please visit couragerc.net and live out your life in the way God has planned for you.
Wow. After reading many of the posts here,(this is a followup to a post I made on july1,) I am so glad I no longer belong to the catholic church. So many of its members, judging from some of these posts, are nothing more than self righteous, sanctimonious hypocrites, pointing fingers at anyone who disagrees with them. If any of you say I’m going to hell for my decision, fine, I’ll see you there.
This is unbelievalbe. Whatever happened to Rebuke the sins of thy Neighbor? Rebuking is Caring. Most will Think that I am “Judgemental” but Homosexuality is clearly condemened we cannot be cowards of the Faith!! Truth is a double Edged sword!! Charity is when Christ rebuked the Scribes and Pharisees. Charity is when Christ Purged the temple. Love thy Nieghbor by correcting thy nieghbor save them from hell. We cannot deny God’s words ‚ÄúNot everyone who says to me, ‚ÄòLord, Lord,‚Äô will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven”. I say this out of Love, love for my fellow homosexual catholics that you must embrase your cross for God gave it to you because you Can bare it!! Offer your sufferings up to our Lord!! You Religious women and men Stand of for Christ, be a witness to him!! Be a witness to truth!! Tolerance is placing Truth at the Same level of Lies. May God help us.
does alfonso, or anyone else out there, ever wonder about that scenario where we die and head to heaven and are confronted by St. Peter at the pearly gates and he asks us, “how could you be part of an institution that so openly and adamantly persecuted your brothers and sisters?” And what will we be able to say?
Joe, people like Scott and Alfonso do not speak for the church. They are individuals who seem to think Christianity is a religion of judgment and hate. That is their problem.
Scott, saying this, “As a Catholic you must believe all of the truths the Catholic Church professes, otherwise you‚Äôre a heretic” is so profoundly ignorant and sad, I assume you have never talked to a thoughtful priest about your view.
Sr. Bernadette shows an attitude and approach Godly Catholic charity and love, as you would expect. Your response is an example of judgment and hate.
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