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Caitlin Kennell Kim
Mary
Fr. Rick Malloy, SJ
General Questions
Fr. Tom Ryan, CSP
Ecumenical, Interfaith
Neela Kale
Culture, Moral Theology
Ann Naffziger, M.A., M.Div.
Bible
Mike Hayes
Swingman/Editor
 
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Our readers asked:

What did Jesus have to say about homosexuality?

Ann Naffziger Answers:

(CNS photo courtesy Catholic Communication Campaign)

If you were to read all four gospels thoroughly in search of Jesus’ teachings on homosexuality it would be a futile endeavor. Not only would you come to the end of the gospels without finding anything attributed to Jesus on the subject, you wouldn’t even find a single reference to the issue in any context.

In fact, there are only a handful of references to homosexuality in the entire Bible, but they are found in the Old Testament and Paul’s writings. (To put it in perspective, while there are only seven references to homosexuality, there are hundreds, perhaps thousands, of references to economic justice and the laws governing the accumulation and distribution of wealth.)

Jesus’ silence on the subject suggests that an issue which can be controversial and/or fraught with emotion these days was simply not a central issue in his lifetime 2,000 years ago in the land of Palestine. The fact that he didn’t address this issue leaves us all to ponder what he might say were he here today.

 
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The Author : Ann Naffziger
Ann Naffziger is a scripture instructor and spiritual director in the San Francisco Bay area. She has has written articles on spirituality and theology for various national magazines and edited several books on the Hebrew Scriptures.
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Please note that the editorial staff reserves the right to not post comments it deems to be inappropriate and/or malicious in nature, as well as edit comments for length, clarity and fairness.
  • Sol Zaer

    Jesus would of been a Socialist #JesusDontCareABoutYourRomanPennies

  • john

    Hi leo, I follow the God of the Old and New Testament. Jesus fulfilled the Old and God brought us into the new, from one Faith to another believing in the same God that always was. I read the Bible, reading God’s Word is one of my main occupations, what do you mean? Did I say something to make you think I don’t read my Bible?

    • Paul

      Interesting that you have main occupations other than reading God’s Word John. I wonder what you do other than supposedly reading God’s word as one of your main occupations. It’s not important, but I wonder if you are any good at the other things you do “mainly” with your life on Earth.
      An educated and detailed review of the Word of God which men such as John cite so often is available on the website for the “NALT Christians Project”

      • john

        Seeking God through His Word and knowing His Word has many current and eternal benefits. What is more important than God and knowing His Word? You should encourage others to read it instead of your foolish site. Read His Word below, can you find yourself in there? Read a couple of the thousands of benifits to knowing His Word. your site is good for nothing. Ill stick with God’s Word

        Proverbs 2 My son, if you accept my words
        and store up my commands within you,
        2 turning your ear to wisdom
        and applying your heart to understanding—
        3 indeed, if you call out for insight
        and cry aloud for understanding,
        4 and if you look for it as for silver
        and search for it as for hidden treasure,
        5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord
        and find the knowledge of God.
        6 For the Lord gives wisdom;
        from his mouth come knowledge and understanding.
        7 He holds success in store for the upright,
        he is a shield to those whose walk is blameless,
        8 for he guards the course of the just
        and protects the way of his faithful ones.
        9 Then you will understand what is right and just
        and fair—every good path.
        10 For wisdom will enter your heart,
        and knowledge will be pleasant to your soul.
        11 Discretion will protect you,
        and understanding will guard you.
        12 Wisdom will save you from the ways of wicked men,
        from men whose words are perverse,
        13 who have left the straight paths
        to walk in dark ways,
        14 who delight in doing wrong
        and rejoice in the perverseness of evil,
        15 whose paths are crooked
        and who are devious in their ways.

  • Paul

    Lee, being gay (and having a sex life) is not a sin but debating it with John is an endless cyclical process. He does know his bible, I’ll give him that, but he will use scripture to further his belief in what it means. The fact that his belief is misguided and wrong, and that it harms others in a metaphorically violent, abusive and unchristian way is not something he will acknowledge.

    Have you seen the essay “Taking God at His Word” over on the NALT Christians Project website? If not I would encourage you to take a look. Society and the culture in the western world is changing fast. People like John will not change but will be marginalized. It’s actually not a prediction for the future, it’s happening now.

    If, as he claims, he is a Christian and if as I claim, I am too… If as I claim, I am a sinner but forgiven and if he is too, then John and I will both go to heaven and it will be interesting to discuss then what made him the way he “was” today!! Of course, he will say I am hell bound, worshiping Satan etc but he’s wrong.

    • Andrew John.

      He does know his bible I give him that, he follows the scriptures. Perfectly.

  • Thomas White

    IT’S a lot of subjects that JESUS didn’t make mention of But there is one statement he did make and that is he said he did not come to destroy the Law but to fulfill it and he said that not one jot of the law will not be change Leviticus 18:22
    Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination

    • Bella

      Thomas, there are a lot of Levitical laws that are deemed culturally invalid now, and the church historically drags behind scientific and cultural understanding. Both science and culture now acknowledge that homosexuality is a normal part of the spectrum of human sexuality (indeed, of animal sexuality in general) and shouldn’t be condemned as aberrant. Some parts of the church have yet to get to that point, but quoting proof-texts isn’t a very convincing argument to those who *have* grasped both the science and the cultural implications.

      • john

        We are not animals and The Church does not follow science and culture. The real Church Follow’s God, and The Word of Him Who created all cultures and science. What science and culture say’s is inconsistent as you. It has and will constanly change but what Jesus said is eternally settled in heaven. He is WAY, WAY, WAY ahead of your science and culture.

        He said Matthew 19:4 “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female, 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’ 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

        You will not receive His Word’s because you speak from a different spirit. foul spirit, tell me where God says men should lie with men or woman with woman? I can show you thousands of references of God’s plan between husband and wife but you cant show me one that says otherwise. You speak from your love of sin not from the love of God and His people. Your science, culture and philosophy means just as much as yesteryears writers who’s works and words are in the garbage somewhere. Where are they now? Everthing my Lord said came and will come true, He never lied or got it wrong, He preformed the miracles that science can not, died for us then rose again. Believe His Word not mans.

        It is Written Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

        You speak for satan/the god of this world and his spiritual forces. Lies. bella will you ever turn from your sins?

        Mr Thomas correctly quoted God’s proof-texts in levitical laws as well as God’s Word spoken in The New Testament. He spoke about the Truth.

      • Bella

        Actually, the church *does* follow (that is, come to the same conclusions as, but many years behind) science and culture. I could give a host of examples, but a couple of the most outstanding include heliocentricity (which a literal reading of Genesis still contradicts, although the church has long-since conceded to science on that), slavery (both Old and New Testaments support it, but the church has long since conceded that society is correct in not seeing it as right).

        However, John, I notice that you’re still as verbally abusive as ever, so I will not engage further with you until you show that you’ve developed some courtesy for others.

      • john

        I dont need your history lesson. Im talking about the real Church not the church of satan that you learn from. The measure of a small part of God’s World and your lack of understanding about slavery, Is that was is blocking a true faith in God and His Word? I could explain much more about these subjects using God’s Word but you know thats not whats blocking your faith. You want to know about the planets and galaxies but you do not truly Believe in His Son or His Word. God’s Word speaks of indentured servants as well as the kidnapping and selling of a slave, and that was a capital offense and called ungodly, unholy, and profane. Those who do that have a special place in Hells fire. Don’t confuse what ungodly men and devils twist scripture to say. Im not speaking of deceived devils, those wolves in sheeps clothing, Im talking about the real Church. You show a care for slaves, thats great. The world should do more to catch and punish slave traders to the fullest extent, but bella we are all slaves, either to God or to sin. Try showing some compassion and stop lying to those who are slaves to sin. Those who are enslaved to man can find freedom in Heaven for eternity. Morn for those enslaved to sin and a devils lie that leads them to become eternal slaves in Hell. Stop working for the slave master of mens souls bella

      • john

        I dont need your history lesson. Im talking about the real Church not the church of satan that you learn from. The measure of a small part of God’s World and your lack of understanding about slavery, Is that what is blocking a true faith in God and His Word? I could explain much more about these subjects using God’s Word but you know thats not whats blocking your faith. You want to know about the planets and galaxies but you do not truly Believe in His Son or His Word. God’s Word speaks of indentured servants as well as the kidnapping and selling of a slave, and that was a capital offense and called ungodly, unholy, and profane. Those who do that have a special place in Hells fire. Don’t confuse what ungodly men and devils twist scripture to say. Im not speaking of deceived devils, those wolves in sheeps clothing, Im talking about the real Church. You show a care for slaves, thats great. The world should do more to catch and punish slave traders to the fullest extent, but bella we are all slaves, either to God or to sin. Try showing some compassion and stop lying to those who are slaves to sin. Those who are enslaved to man can find freedom in Heaven for eternity. Morn for those enslaved to sin and a devils lie that leads them to become eternal slaves in Hell. Stop working for the slave master of mens souls bella

      • Paul

        John: “I dont need your history lesson.”

        But you do John. You absolutely do need lessons, and not just in history, but English, English Literature, basic “Biology”… I actually wonder if you went to school and, if you did, how the teachers can justify being paid anything at all for what they did while you were there.

      • john

        Yes paul great observation. I know none of those things. I do know God’s will.

        1 Thessalonians 4: 3 It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should learn to control your own body in a way that is holy and honorable, 5 not in passionate lust like the pagans, who do not know God

      • Paul

        Well we disagree that is immoral. Why do you think quoting scripture repeatedly out of context will do anything but show your bigotry?

        The essay “Taking God at His Word” addresses your views clearly. Available via the NALT Christians Project website.

      • john

        Liar. You don’t disagree with me you disagree with God’s Word. He said it was sin and marriage was between a man and a woman. Tell me one place where God did not call it a sin?

      • Paul

        The essay “Taking God at His Word” discusses the scripture and homosexuality at length (around 4000 words). Refer to that on the website for the NALT Christians Project.

        I do disagree with you. I’m completely opposed to your approach on the subject. As evidenced by your criticism of the above website and the study I reference above. The arguments are well rehearsed and nothing is gained by recycling here.

        In the end, what you say here makes no difference. The good news is that God’s children have grown. The latest (just released) poll of the Anglican community in the UK shows increasing numbers support gay marriage. Better than that, more actually in favor than against it.

        Even greater news… The young (25 to 34) are 72% in favor. Those over 55 years of age are most anti-gay marriage, but they will die leaving enlightened people who are not bigoted.

        LGBTQ will be welcome in God’s churches, married or not. I predict, to be married in a public ceremony like mine. Blessed are we! All of us, even you John!

      • john

        What I say does not make a differance and neither does yours. However If we say what God’sWord says Its Truth. sinners are welcome to church of course but a True Church corrects sinners and teaches them God’s Word so that the hearers can come to saving faith. paul your pratice of sin will lead others to hell. open your eyes liar, satan has you bound.

      • Paul

        I am not sinning in my marriage to my life long partner though John. It does not say that in the bible. You say that, but you are not His, and you are not God…
        A proper examination of the biblical texts people like John use to oppress LGBTQ is available on the website for the NALT Christians Project.
        In the UK this month there have been significant developments in the Anglican church where they have discovered how “out of step” they are with society. 72% of people 25-34 now agree that marriage for same sex partners is good and should be supported. More people “within the Anglican community” support same sex marriage than oppose it. A leading member of the church apologised this month for the treatment of LGBTQ.
        None of the facts above change God’s word. God is not anti-gay. God has never said being homosexual is a sin. Nowhere in the bible does it say that two men or two women cannot be married.

      • john

        Liar. God’s Word says if a man lies with another man it is sin. Uk needs prayer

      • Andrew John.

        He does.

      • Paul

        In English, the contraction of “it” and “is” is in fact “it’s”

        You need to use an apostrophe between the “T” and the “S” Andrew.

        Now you might also like to learn something about theology as well as the English language. Take a look at the excellent essay “Taking God at His Word” on the website for the “NALT Christians Project”

        It discusses in depth the assertions from John and other so called “Christians”

        Peace be with you.

      • john

        Its a devil in you paul

      • Andrew John.

        See and there it is .Now you with this. cheers for that paul : )

      • Andrew John.

        If God directs me I will.

      • Andrew John.

        Rude as well : (

      • Andrew John.

        I done most but knew in my heart this is Wrong (my filthy ways ) had to stop, selfish, me me me, Now : ) The Almighty always was is and always will , And I Tell you my Brother ; ) Truth is Truth.

      • john

        Your not alone on that Bro! Glory to God and thank God for Jesus!!

      • Andrew John.

        Im still young in my learning but I have (the best teacher) ; )

      • Andrew John.

        Hello john deleted my account then re done it . Didn’t like how I kept getting warning saying someone might try and steal your information on busted halo . question why was it took to ( busted halo anyway ? new to this

      • Andrew John.

        Why was it took to that ?

      • john

        Sorry Andrew. I do not understand what you are asking?

      • Andrew John.

        sorry brother john its Andrew john I got all paranoid because it says something about credit card and profile might get stolen so I panicked and deleted account (dope) had to start again .lost all my convos. had a good conversation with you as well.xx

      • Andrew John.

        And as you were saying .God says it is wrong. Correct brother John. he is lying .you dont change Gods words.

      • john

        Hey Andrew John. Curses can come with changing God’s Word. If in the flesh I ever error to God’s Word, feel free to tell me and keep me accountable. If I speak His Word Amen and If His Word corrects me so be it. His Word is True. All praise to Him and His Word

      • Andrew John.

        Because im new to this discus , when it said be carefull as you are not protected. I thought (wat) oh no .delete delete. ; ) had to start again .new account lost all my conversations we was talking about.But must say. satan and The so called church have done it making out its not a sin when it is.

      • john

        Sin is sin friend. All sin and God loves and died for sinners, but the response to sin and the hearing of His Word is very different from those that are His sheep and those who are goats.

      • Andrew John.

        I don’t get it ? I am not aiming anything at you ? I am in agreement with you brother John.

      • john

        Relax friend. I was talking about the sin of the churches of satan that you mentioned.

      • Andrew John.

        im cool my friend : )

      • Andrew John.

        wasn’t being funny , I apologise if it came across that way .You speak the Truth John.

      • Andrew John.

        all them guests is me but new account .Sorry brother.

      • john

        No need. Hope you are well.

      • Andrew John.

        Fine Bro

      • Paul

        Alone on what “Bro”? Has the man you agreed with had his words deleted from the thread for some reason? Was what he said unchristian or in some way abusive perhaps. I wonder what you agreed with…

      • john

        Ephesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

      • Susie Perales

        So I’m guessing that you would not have engaged in a conversation with Jesus because he called the Pharisees vipers and told them Satan was their father a a few other choice words? Do you believe Jesus was a bigot, too?

      • Bella

        It’s a valid question. I’ll answer it in the light of what I assume are your beliefs (but which are certainly John’s) – namely, that all of the bible is literally and word-for-word true, and that Jesus is God. That being so, Jesus is in a bit of a different position to John, don’t you think? What God might say is based in being perfect and omniscient, neither of which John can lay claim to.

        John is, like me, an ordinary human being, and thus should treat other humans with respect as equals.

      • Susie Perales

        John was using scripture to make his point not his own words. Scripture as we both know cuts like a two edged sword and if one is offended by God’s word then we must search our hearts and not judge a brother in Christ for speaking God’s truth from His holy scriptures. The apostles were also just mere humans but they did exactly what John has been doing with honorable intentions to show God’s light in a dark and confused world. If others are offended by the light it’s not the messenger who is causing that, but the Holy Spirit piercing our hearts exposing our sinful lives.

      • Bella

        Susie, John’s been verbally abusive for months on this thread. He has not “used scripture to make his point”, he’s been directly and verbally abusive. He’s called people who disagree with him liars, fools, and much much worse.

        You suggest that “we must search our hearts and not judge a brother in Christ for speaking God’s truth from His holy scriptures”, but you say it from a point of complacency that you’re right, just as John does. I don’t see anything to suggest that you or John have searched your heart and not judged those here who disagree with you.

        Being a Christian is never a justification for appalling behaviour, and quoting scripture is vastly different from using scriptural phrases to belittle and demean others. In fact, given that John hasn’t at any point managed to engage in rational debate on this issue, it’s very clear that he uses vitriol simply to attempt to win a dispute he is incapable of offering logical justification for.

      • Susie Perales

        I’ve not seen him abuse anyone yet. I only read this thread as of last night. So I can’t judge him on hearsay. You don’t know my heart so you are judging me. So you contradict your own words. Neither you or I are saints, but I know I’m saved. Either we are saints or we are ain’ts as Dr Vernon McGee used to say. He also said we were going to be appointed by God to be judges according to scripture. If John, in fact, did do what you are telling me it’s between him and God since you pointed out we can’t judge others.

      • Bella

        No, Susie, I haven’t contradicted myself. There’s a big difference between assessment of someone’s words and judgementalism. I was making observations about *your* contradictions, insofar as you have been critical of me and defended John, therefby effectively supporting his judgementalism.

        I’m not sure what your scriptural reference is for saying that we will be appointed as judges, but I’m guessing that’s after death, not in our earthly life. Feel free to come up with a verse that we can discuss, though.

        I’ve been involved in this thread for something like a year now, if not longer. In that time, I’ve certainly got impatient with those who fail to defend their position logically, and angry with those who descend to vitriolic condemnation of others who disagree with them. But to me, courtesy is a hallmark of respect for others, and therefore I will not descend to the kind of abuse John descends to.

      • Susie Perales

        1. Love your neighbor as yourself. 2. If you hate your brother you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Let’s pray for those we are angry with instead of being angry at them. Forgive them as our Farher has forgiven us. 3. Jesus said: “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.” I’m not defending John, only the words of God that he posted. I can’t defend him for the sins he commited against you if I never saw them. If I had seen him posting what you are accusing him of, I would have understood your great concern.

      • Bella

        Susie, many Christians are frightened of anger, but that’s not a biblical attitude either. Remember Eph.4:26 – “Be angry, but do not sin.” It’s possible to be angry yet still be righteous.

        As for saying you aren’t defending John, actually you did. You said “John was using scripture to make his point not his own words.” And then, when I called you on it, you said that you’d only been reading the thread since the night before, so you hadn’t seen what I said he’d said, and called it “hearsay”. Well, some of his posts are there plain to read, just a little above where you took up this part of the conversation. He’s not “using scripture to make his point” when he deliberately calls someone else “Liar., and he does it twice to Paul in quick succession. Many of his more vitriolic earlier posts have been deleted by the moderators because they’re so bad. But let me give you a few quotes from earlier posts still extant:
        1) “Thats the dumbest question Ive ever heard out of your lying mouth.”
        2) “Devil, paul is not your name why should I cap it?”
        3) “You live in a mud hole of filth, stench and sin.”
        4) “”u are a walking contradiction and every time you open your mouth you spaek you native tounge of lies.”[sic]
        5) “Im here to contrast your filth and lies.”
        6) “You’ve shown a little of the poison of in your heart”
        7) “you continue to run your dirty little mouth.”
        8) “Your sneaky and slippery”
        9) “your inner wolf cant help but open your evil mouth.”
        10) “hell bound snake.”
        All those quotes (none of which are scripture, of course) are from just the last 4 months, and I lost count of the number of times he calls people “Liar” or “Fool”.

        You may not have seen them all, but you don’t have to take my word for it. Just click on John’s profile link and you can scroll down and read his comments, as you can do with any contributor to the thread.

      • Susie Perales

        Ok, I was doing exactly what you said. Defending the scriptures not the messenger. Your anger is righteous, but we are told if we keep that anger past the night we are sinning in our anger. Like I said, all we can do is pray for one another when we see each other straying from the will of God. You sound almost obsessed in your anger with this guy. That’s beyond righteous anger. I never once saw his negative comments and I don’t like what I read, if that is in fact what he said. God will deal with him, I’m sure. We can’t lead anyone to Christ by showing them anger or hatred. We, as you know are supposed to hate the sin, but never the sinner. That is biblical. Read Ann Graham Lotz book ‘I Saw the Lord’ it is amazing and a true wake up call to those of us who claim Christ as our Savior. We should spend time worrying more about our own walk with the Lord and seeking him instead of bashing each other just to win an argument. I’m not being hostile nor hateful towards you. I’m just speaking words to you that the Lord has led me to speak. Why waste our time following these threads in the first place? I hardly do this at all. I don’t have time to, but for some reason God led me here yesterday. I’d rather focus my life on trying to improve my walk with Christ than bickering over John, who you and I don’t even know personally. He has a conscience and claims to be a Christian, so I’m sure God will take care of his walk and I’ll end this unnecessary dispute with you. For all you know maybe God is trying to teach us both something here. Goodnight and God bless you. I have my life to attend to. John 3:16 John 3:3

      • Bella

        Susie, it’s odd that you consider me obsessive merely for documenting what someone has said (which I only did by way of showing you that claiming you “haven’t read it” isn’t the end of your options – though I notice you’re still saying “if that’s what he said”, as if you haven’t gone and checked).

        No, I haven’t held onto my anger past sundown; it’s not worth that. In fact, most of the time I don’t get angry about it at all. All I’ve done is to take a stand when I see it and a) call him on it, and b) refuse to continue engaging with him. Neither of those responses are obsessive, and both are aimed towards increasing respectful engagement and decreasing disrespectful engagement.

        As for why remain here, well, each of us is different, with different gifts and talents, and different calls from God. You are obviously only passing through, because you see remaining here as a waste of time and a distraction from your walk with the Lord. I’m called to remain here speaking out against misinformation and abuse. My background is in history and archaeology, plus anthropology, and particularly as those apply to Christianity, so there are a lot of irrational and unscholarly assumptions here that I’m obliged to refute.

      • Susie Perales

        To each his own. . It’s 19 hours later and you’re still obsessing over my responses. I told you I was done and left you with kind words and blessings. You sound a bit hostile to me. Sometimes we have to look in the mirror and admit that we all fall short of God’s glory and we can’t fix others unless we fix ourselves first. Good luck in trying to save sinners, but that’s the Holy Spirits job.

      • Bella

        You seem to have a very odd idea of what constitutes “obsessing” :-) Replying to someone is hardly obsessive. And my goodness, why on earth would you think that I’m trying to save sinners?? I offer correct information, that’s all; what people do with that is up to them. But regardless of whether I agree with someone or not, and whether they agree with me or not, I don’t tolerate abuse from people, either in my “real” life or online.

      • Andrew John.

        Amen

      • Susie Perales

        Read pages 45 thru 48 where Isaiah felt about his people’s involvement in sinful behavior.

      • Andrew John.

        Can I read it on the Internet or do I have to buy it sister susie : )

      • Susie Perales

        I’m not sure, but it’s for sale on Amazon.
        Here’s a scripture I really love that I posted earlier on my timeline. Wait I forgot the scripture. Argh “The master was full of praise. `Well done, my good and faithful servant. You have been faithful in handling this small amount, so now I will give you many more responsibilities. Let’s celebrate together!'” How about your life today?

        Is God calling us to really use the time, gifts and skills he has given us for something bigger than ourselves? Is God calling us to produce a great harvest of loving and serving and blessing others in our lives? So that when we arrive at heaven’s gate at the end of our lives we will hear verse 21 from God Himself –

      • Andrew John.

        Thank you Sister susie ; ) x

      • Paul

        Gosh you are confused John. What Jesus said is definitely eternal, but our understanding, our interpretation of biblical texts definitely changes. The discovery of “versions” of translations that are different as translators work to interpret them based on scientific discovery, research and knowledge of the development of languages… That does change what we read today.

        I trust God first. And I trust the “Master and Fellows of Sidney Sussex College in Cambridge (UK) above you and your posts here!
        To ignore science and research, to blindly determine your beliefs based on translations of the original written word is ridiculous. You do yourself a disservice in your posts here John.
        NEWS OF THE FINDING:
        The King James Bible, the most widely read book in the English language — from which phrases like “a man after his own heart” emerged — is as storied as it is elusive…

        The manuscript was hidden among the papers of Samuel Ward, one of the men commissioned by King James I to translate a new version of the Christian text into English in the early 17th century.

        Jeffrey Miller, an assistant professor of English at Montclair State University in New Jersey, chanced upon the 400-year-old notebook while doing research on Ward for an essay he’s writing. The Eureka moment came when Miller realized that the notebook contained text from the very book that Ward had been commissioned to help translate. Miller recalled thinking, “Oh my gosh, he’s talking about a book that he had been asked to help translate,” he said. “Then I realized rather he was creating the King James Bible in that moment.” [Proof of Jesus Christ? 7 Pieces of Evidence Debated]

        Describing his discovery in the Times Literary Supplement, Miller said the notebook is not just the earliest draft ever found, but it is also the only surviving draft written in the hand of one of the original translators.

      • john

        Liar. I dont understand confusion from the author of confusion. You say “What Jesus said is external” Liar. Jesus said His Word is spirit and truth John 6:63, Hebrews 4:12 the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

        You say you trust God first. God said marriage was between a man and woman and those who dont come to Him and stop the practice of homosexuality will go to hell. You dont trust that because your not his. stop lying to people paul and open your eyes

      • Paul

        Posts where John accuses me of being a liar have a habit of being deleted here on this thread. In your post John, I notice you refused to even comment on the news I mentioned… that the earliest surviving draft of the King James Version of our Christian Bible has been found. The only surviving draft, in the hand of the original translators.

        For a man supposedly believing in God and a true Christian, that news is incredibly important John. For people like you though, it is disturbing. I understand that! It is a concern because your beliefs are based upon what you believe is fact. Unchanging, the word of God, from thousands of years ago.

        Reality is, and this is not theory but fact, the text in the bible was changed over time because it was handwritten and because it was translated. Draft versions, reviewed and redrafted… and meanings today require thoughtful contemplation and prayer.

        The younger generation has comprehended what human sexuality is far better than we did as teenagers and young adults. I’ve pasted the latest polling of the Anglican community in the UK on other answers to you today. I’ll repeat simply because of the size of this thread. I’ll also remind readers where to see the same biblical texts you often quote and the context I think is relevant in interpreting them.

        The essay “Taking God at His Word” discusses the scripture and homosexuality at length (around 4000 words). Refer to that on the website for the NALT Christians Project.

        The young (25 to 34) are 72% in favor of gay marriage being permitted. Those over 55 years of age are most anti-gay marriage, but they will die leaving enlightened people who are not bigoted.

        LGBTQ will be welcome in God’s churches, married or not. I predict, to be married in a public ceremony like mine, inside churches. Blessed are we! All of us, even you John!

      • john

        Not everyone want the truth to be spoken but even they shall be Judged for their evil motives and love of sin over truth. You love man’s polls and opinions, they mean nothing to me. What did God say? Marriage is a man and a woman and those who dont repent from the pratice of sin will not enter His Kingdom. Shall God’s people follow His Word or your polls?

      • john

        Not everyone want’s the truth to be spoken but even they shall be Judged for their evil motives and love of sin over truth. You love man’s polls and opinions, they mean nothing to me. What did God say? Marriage is a man and a woman and those who dont repent from the pratice of sin will not enter His Kingdom. Shall God’s people follow His Word or your polls?

      • Paul

        And nobody wants to hear your untruths John… Unless they subscribe to the bigotry you do.

        Nothing evil in my motives. I am motivated by the sad loss of a friend and by the knowledge of many such losses in young lives. You don’t believe in making disciples of Christ unless they fit with your interpretation of the Word. I on the other hand believe that the Word does not make being LGBTQ wrong, especially not loving someone of the same sex and marrying them.
        Yes, polls do matter to me. They inform me of opinion of the population. That matters to me more than your opinion. Not more than God’s opinion, but so much more than yours! Reality is we disagree on what the words in the bible actually mean to the society and culture of today. The words are eternal (despite being re-written many times by different people and different versions actually saying different things) but that aside the general meaning is constant. Yet, that meaning is NOT what I hear you saying.
        So yes, we shall follow his word, but not add to his word as you do! A full discussion of the meaning of the texts you and others like you can be found in the essay “Taking God at His Word” which is available on the “NALT Christians Project” website.

      • john

        Sorry you lost your friend paul. Did He repent of His sin and genuinely accept Jesus before he met His maker? We are losing people every day paul and its sad but Jesus said dont fear death here, fear Him who can destroy body and soul in hell. You still have time to stop leading people to a life style that leads to death. Open your eyes paul you are causing people to stumble

      • Susie Perales

        John, this is the best bible study I’ve seen all night! God is the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow! He never changes! We do! You are a true blessing. Praise God for men like you who know the Lord and his word. TRUTH can not be revealed to the blind or the deaf who choose to wallow in their sin. It is sad. God bless you. I found this thread because people I know were praising the kid who just told his father he was gay and the dad told him that he had to follow the same rules as his sisters. No boys in his room. I was sad to see that most of the positive comments were being made by Christians?! I found you and I was happy to see that not all is lost in this upside down world.

      • john

        Liar. I dont understand confusion from the author of confusion. You say “What Jesus said is external” Liar. Jesus said His Word is spirit and truth John 6:63, Hebrews 4:12 the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

        You say you trust God first. God said marriage was between a man and woman and those who dont come to Him and stop the practice of homosexuality will go to hell. You dont trust that because your not his. stop lying to people paul and open your eyes

      • Paul

        Yes you do understand and you do not find it confusing at all…
        The truth is you are misdirecting people and falsely using the Word of God.
        God did not define marriage as being “Exclusively” man and woman. You know that, and you cannot point to where this is the case, because there is nothing in the bible to say such.
        This is why it is so important that people have other sources of fact. Given only your version, young men and women may believe they cannot have faith in God or a belief in His son Jesus Christ and be saved.
        I am here to say they can. The reasoning is in the essay “Taking God at His Word” which can be found on the NALT Christians Project website.
        You need to open your eyes John. You will feel quite awful when you have died and gone elsewhere. Heaven… If you make there and we meet! Hell… Well you know what that entails.

      • john

        feeble man you say” I am here to say they can” Devil The Great I Am/Jesus said Matthew 19:4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

        God defined marriage not you paul.

      • john

        Liar. I dont understand confusion from the author of confusion. You say “What Jesus said is external” Liar. Jesus said His Word is spirit and truth John 6:63, Hebrews 4:12 the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

        You say you trust God first. God said marriage was between a man and woman and those who dont come to Him and stop the practice of homosexuality will go to hell. You dont trust that because your not his. stop lying to people paul and open your eyes

      • Paul

        John: “We are not animals”!!!

        ANIMAL (Noun):
        A living organism that feeds on organic matter, typically having specialized sense organs and nervous system and able to respond rapidly to stimuli.

        We are, by any definition, animal.

        (Perhaps John is a plant!)

      • john

        No God’s Chilren are not animals.

        2 peter 2:12 But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.

        Now is see why you reason as you do

      • Paul

        So this is why we are fundamentally different as Christians! Well it’s good to know why at least.

        I accept Christ as my savior. I also accept scientific facts.

        God won’t have a problem with that. God, I believe, created all things, including science and our capacity to understand it.

        Now I see why you reason as you do. You prefer to be of the past, in the past, not to do as children do and learn, grow and develop new understanding. That’s ok, but you should know that if you do that you do become a smaller and smaller minority of peoples.

        God has a plan, I know it, and he will see it through. Glory to him!

      • john

        Thats a broad statement. I believe in some scientific facts but their is a big differance between a scientific fact and a scientific theory. When Christ/God and the scientist disagree who do you listen to paul? should we Listen to God or man?

        God does have a plan, His Word is his will and plan. He said those who dont turn for the pratice of homosexuality will not enter His kingdom and He will see that through. You dont know Jesus paul, you have made up a god, stop listening to the voices in your head. According to God’s Word you dont know Him because you do not obey His Word and you pratice sin. open your eyes paul and stop misleading people

      • Andrew John.

        Almighty.

      • Paul

        I’m misleading nobody John. No more than you are anyway!

        You quote scripture and say what you think it means. All I am doing is offering another place with the same quotations and another view on what it means.

        As you and I grow old and closer to departing this world, the younger generation has comprehended what human sexuality is far better than we did.

        I’ve pasted the latest polling of the Anglican community in the UK on other answers to you today. I’ll repeat simply because of the size of this thread. I’ll also remind readers where to see the biblical texts and context I think is relevant.

        The essay “Taking God at His Word” discusses the scripture and homosexuality at length (around 4000 words). Refer to that on the website for the NALT Christians Project.

        The young (25 to 34) are 72% in favor. Those over 55 years of age are most anti-gay marriage, but they will die leaving enlightened people who are not bigoted.

        LGBTQ will be welcome in God’s churches, married or not. I predict, to be married in a public ceremony like mine. Blessed are we! All of us, even you John!

      • john

        If you disagree with what God says you are misleading people. I quote Scripture because it is the Word of God you quote what comes from your sinful mind that wants to allow for the pleasure of your pants. You are growing older and closer to departing from this world so stop putting sexuality before God, truly believe In the Lord Jesus and repent of your sins, leave the man thats is pimping you and follow Jesus and his Word. Your site is garbage, full of smoke and mirrors only ment to magnify sin. anglicawho? God’s Word says marriage is between a man and a woman. Should we believe Him or the lust of your sin?

      • Paul

        I believe very strongly in what God says. I just do not accept your interpretation of what God says. Your interpretation is wrong; actually in a very damaging and evil way.
        My mind is not sinful, and God loves me and does not have issues with my marriage or love for the partner I share my whole life with.
        My sexuality is part of me, which God created, and he loves me, including my sexuality.
        I do not repent of being homosexual, being married to a man or everything that goes along with that.
        Not only does God have no issue with it, neither does the population of God’s children. You are marginalised, increasingly, in your bigotry. I will pray for you. God does not say there is a problem with two men or women marrying. It is in your imagination, and put there by people of the past. You are in the past, whereas God is forever and there will be a time, not too far away when churches will recognise and fulfil marriages for all people, including LGBTQ. And God will love them as he does me and my love and devotion to him and my partner.
        We should believe God. I no more lust for my husband than any straight woman does for hers. There is beauty in that, given by God.
        My site? It is not mine, but LGBTQ Christians can compare your vitriol here to what is published in the excellent essay “Taking God at His Word” available at the NALT Christians Project website.

      • john

        God loves you paul but you dont love Him more than your treasured sin. You are not fooling anyone except yourself. 2 peter 2:17 These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

      • religioushypocrites

        Listen to yourselves… The lot of you…. Self righteous imbeciles

      • Paul

        You believe in “some scientific facts”. Not other “scientific facts”? Some facts are facts and others are not then? Is that what you mean to say?
        I believe in God and His son Jesus. I also believe in “scientific facts”. I agree theories are different, but facts are solid. God gave us the ability to work in science and to learn (as children do learn as they grow).
        Interesting choice of words John. It says something, psychologically, about your belief system.
        A modern, yet factual and theological approach to God’s Word can be found in the excellent essay on the website for the NALT Christian Project. The essay being titled, “Taking God at His Word”

      • john

        confussion. Nothing I say sounds like your foolish website.

        James 2: 9 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

        demons believe but they rebel against His Word and influence others to do the same. God’s children turn from sin not pratice it.

      • Paul

        You believe in “some scientific facts”, but you don’t believe in other scientific facts?

        Are there scientific facts you don’t believe John, even though by your own words they are “fact”?

      • Paul

        Is John a plant? Canabis perhaps? That would explain the problem!

      • john

        Im apart of no plant except the True Vine Jesus Christ. devil under my feet.

      • Andrew John.

        Yes , born again : )

      • john

        Praise God Brother. I pray 3 John 1:2 Dear friend, I pray that you may enjoy good health and that all may go well with you, even as your soul is getting along well.

        And Ephesians 1:17 asking God, the glorious Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, to give you spiritual wisdom and insight so that you might grow in your knowledge of God.

        And Romans 8: 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:

        “For your sake we face death all day long;
        we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”j
        37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,k neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

        God Bless you Andrew, Have a good weekend.

      • Andrew John.

        If you could see this smile : )

      • Andrew John.

        Big smile .

      • Andrew John.

        all the way from Nottingham England Thank you my bro : )

      • Paul

        You will find, too late I fear, that the vine you believe to be Jesus Christ was not. Praying for you…

      • john

        fool. I believe in the God of the universe who is the Word made flesh and who gave us His Word written. The one and only Jesus Christ. You believe in the god of your pants. you made up a fake jesus. Should God’s people follow Him or you paul?

      • Paula Okeefe

        John God is a Creator, is He not? Did He say Adam needs a friend and created Eve, not Steven!. Then He said go out and be fertile! How can two men be Co creators? I don’t see how two men or two women can be Co creators!

        In All simplicity, they cannot do this unless they use creative scientific measures which often endanger the embryo.

        Yes, the Lord loves gays. But He doesn’t say it is,normal and acceptable, ever!!!!!! We do find a scary condemnation in St Paul’s epistle….for drunks, aldulterers, homosexuals and others who fail to repent. My homosexual friends seem to have so much bagguage, but my homosexual friends who remain chaste or become heterosexual are sooooo much happier and it is their words not mine. So ponder seriously, we are all sinners and we all fall short. But charity behooves us to share with our gay friends truth…..let us,pray for each other. Jesus prayed that the Father consecrate His apostles in truth and I believe that prayer is for us….so can we pray for the fullness of truth to be revealed as Gods word reveals it and may we be humble enough to repent when we see our sins and foibles. God bless

      • Bella

        Paula, I’m not surprised that your homosexual friends are happier chaste or living heterosexually, because you clearly move in circles where homosexuality is unacceptable, and therefore the homosexuals in that circle are likely to be ones who have chosen a way of life that fits within that context. But that doesn’t mean that that’s true for all – or even most – homosexuals.

        As to your creation argument, you’re inferring a cause from an effect. We all (pretty much) accept that for humans to have children there needs to be egg and sperm (though that’s not the case for many other animals, so using a “nature” argument is tenuous anyway), but that doesn’t necessarily imply that all love relationships must therefore be between male and female, nor that an injunction to “fill the earth” is still relevant now that the earth is appallingly OVER-filled.

      • Paula Okeefe

        Appallingly over filled is an error. You can put the entire US population in Texas. Might be crowded, but doable. There are many,many wide open places that can be
        Used for habitat with a little help from each other. My goosh, u believe the population lies UN spins to?

      • Bella

        It’s not about the UN, it’s about climate, and industrialisation, and natural balance in eco-systems, and what we do to prolong life, and other things like that. The world population has nearly doubled in the last 40 years. That’s not a lie – that’s fact. And if everyone keeps “being fruitful and multiplying” at the same rate, without altering a single other thing, we’re in for a disaster well before the end of this century.

        If you want to strictly abide by the injunction to be fruitful and multiply, then you ought also to abide by the medical, technological, dietary and labour conditions that were also relevant at the time. And that means no interventions to save unduly premie babies (or mothers who are dying in childbirth). No interventions to save people who get sick (whose early deaths are part of natural population control). No vaccinations to prevent people dying of infectious diseases. No antibiotics. And plenty of hard manual labour that shortens life.

        I really can’t see people returning to all that, can you?

        Oh, and by the way – I don’t know what Texas is like, but I do know what it’s like in Australia, and there’s no way you could cram our entire population, with its current practices, into large parts of our arid inland areas. And even if you did, then there’s still the problem of what to do with their waste…

      • Paul

        Heck I wouldn’t be happier. A certain significant other would not be either. Divorce would be likely!!

      • Paul

        Paula, Paul’s words are not actually scary at all to those of us who are gay and in consensual, loving relationships. I’ve read your view, you can see an alternative view (quoting Romans etc) on a website created by Christians from many church faith groups. It’s called the “NALT Christians Project” and the essay which examines the theology around human sexuality is entitled “Taking God at His Word”. Quite long, very detailed at 4000+ words. An alternative view though. I won’t debate here. Just presenting an alternative view. Blessings to you.

      • Andrew John.

        Very Nice paul. You want to Laff at Johns expense , making remarks like that. Christian ?

      • Jeremiah N Baruch

        A Venus fly trap fits that description. But that’s considered a plant.

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