Busted Halo
googling god
The Busted Halo Question Box
Ask our spiritual experts virtually anything!
This is the place where you can ask all of those burning questions that you wouldn't dare ask in person. We will post questions here (using your byline only with permission); we guarantee an answer to everyone.

Have your own question? Then pitch it to us!

Caitlin Kennell Kim
Mary
Fr. Rick Malloy, SJ
General Questions
Fr. Tom Ryan, CSP
Ecumenical, Interfaith
Neela Kale
Culture, Moral Theology
Ann Naffziger, M.A., M.Div.
Bible
Mike Hayes
Swingman/Editor
 
facebooktwittergoogle_plusredditpinterestlinkedintumblrmailfacebooktwittergoogle_plusredditpinterestlinkedintumblrmail
Our readers asked:

What did Jesus have to say about homosexuality?

Ann Naffziger Answers:

(CNS photo courtesy Catholic Communication Campaign)

If you were to read all four gospels thoroughly in search of Jesus’ teachings on homosexuality it would be a futile endeavor. Not only would you come to the end of the gospels without finding anything attributed to Jesus on the subject, you wouldn’t even find a single reference to the issue in any context.

In fact, there are only a handful of references to homosexuality in the entire Bible, but they are found in the Old Testament and Paul’s writings. (To put it in perspective, while there are only seven references to homosexuality, there are hundreds, perhaps thousands, of references to economic justice and the laws governing the accumulation and distribution of wealth.)

Jesus’ silence on the subject suggests that an issue which can be controversial and/or fraught with emotion these days was simply not a central issue in his lifetime 2,000 years ago in the land of Palestine. The fact that he didn’t address this issue leaves us all to ponder what he might say were he here today.

 
facebooktwittergoogle_plusredditpinterestlinkedintumblrmailfacebooktwittergoogle_plusredditpinterestlinkedintumblrmail
The Author : Ann Naffziger
Ann Naffziger is a scripture instructor and spiritual director in the San Francisco Bay area. She has has written articles on spirituality and theology for various national magazines and edited several books on the Hebrew Scriptures.
See more articles by (104).
Please note that the editorial staff reserves the right to not post comments it deems to be inappropriate and/or malicious in nature, as well as edit comments for length, clarity and fairness.
  • Ed Crown

    Jesus did not have to say anything during His earthly ministry. If you believe in Jesus Christ and you reference the Gospel of John 1:1, Jesus is God. If you read chapters 13-17 he says that Him and the Father are one. Philip asked Jesus to show us the Father and what was Jesus’ reply? “Philip I’ve been with you so long now–how can you ask show us the Father”? Jesus said it because He is and always has been identified as the Word of God. I am not a hater–nor phobe. But people should stop manipulating God’s word and twisting it to fit their own life. It does not work that way. God said that men lying with men and women with women is an abomination before God. I am defending God’s word since this writer is taking truth and twisting it. But God detests other things like murder, stealing, covetousness, adultery, slander also—so if you bash gays while you do any of the things that God hates, you make yourself out to be a hypocrite. The point is Jesus said we should treat all with respect, even our enemies–and pray for them. Judging others sins is wrong. Only God can judge His creation. None of us are righteous before God. If we were we would not have needed Christ to come into the world. But make no mistake Jesus said in His own worlds He came to fulfill the law and the prophets. Nice spin author; but you cannot move the line.

  • joe b

    deeper thought for Laurie, some of us believe that you have the Jesus quote on coming to fulfill the law as telling you to follow the old law all wrong…and that he meant, that all the law was fulfilled by him/Jesus with his arrival and upcoming death on the cross and that his complete instructions to us were very short and simple: love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. And that the only way he will recognize his followers upon his return is by their love for each other. What an amazing place this temporary world would be if all the followers of Christ kept their message to others limited to this command and praising Jesus as their lord instead of seeing the “law” of the bible as their lord and treating Jesus’s sacrifice as just an after thought. He referred to these people focused on their knowledge and shouting of the law, as the Pharisees and then he spoke of the law in the context of course it being impossible to live by since all men and women are so weak, and if we tried to live up to it you might as well cut off your right hand and pluck out your eye if you sin, etc. that is why he came and died to save us even though we are not worthy and never can be worthy, so before we Christians grab a saw and start removing our right arms, we need to stop the self righteous shouting about the old law and start focusing on the good news of Jesus and shouting about his love for us. Jesus loves and died for everyone not just straight people.

  • J. Charles Carrington

    JESUS did address homosexuality, as well as all sexual sin when HE, confronted with the woman caught in adultery (a sexual sin), defended her against her accusers, and told her to go and sin no more.

    In previous Old Testament Scripture and subsequent New Testament Scripture when the issue was prevelant in society, open, and seeking prominence/acceptance, GOD addressed it, GOD through New Testament writers addressed it, and what was said about this sin/behavior has not changed.

  • Laurie

    God changes plans because of man’s free will. but his character and who he is does not change. If God calls it sin, then it will always be sin. He doesn’t change his mind about what is sin and what is not. That would make him double minded, like man. Because you decide to travel west instead of east, does not mean that your character, who you are, and your integrity changes.

    • Tom

      Indeed God’s character never changes. But yes He does change plans.
      so who are we to say whether God is telling someone to go east or west.
      His original plan was the creation of one man and one woman joined together as companions. He said “It is not good that man should be alone.”
      So could you explain to me how King Solomon, the wisest man who ever lived had about 700 wives and mistresses? Sounds kind of dumb to me. but i have yet to find where God rebuked him for it. In the book of Ecclesiastes, Solomon laments that all this excess was vanity, so perhaps that is why he is considered the wisest man who ever lived.

      • Laurie

        Tom, How would I know why Solomon had all those wives and mistresses? At least he knew better that it should not be both men and women. I don’t understand what Solomon has to do with this subject.

      • Phil Fox Rose

        Laurie, I think what it has to do with it is pretty obvious: What God’s people consider acceptable sexual activity in God’s eyes does change. Having more than one wife, or having mistresses as well as a wife, is considered today by most Christians to be immoral. If Solomon was favored by God, and if all those who were practicing polygamy and marrying close family members back then were OK with God while doing it, why are these things unacceptable today? The answer is that these are human constructs; or at the very least, that our understanding of what’s acceptable to God changes all the time. The thing concerning relationships that is not a human construct, that God DOES desire for us is, as Tom said, that we not be alone.

      • Laurie

        Phil, So because Solomon had many, it’s okay for us to have many partners too? What God instituted, was not always followed by man. God allowed man his own free will, and so you cannot go by what man does, or what he did in the past. Because he gets away with it does’n't mean God approves. It only means that his mercy and grace are the reason that he is patient with us. God only ordained marriage between a man and a woman. There is no where in scripture that indicates God had planned marriage or sexual relations with the same sex. That’s the bottom line.

        Using only scripture:

        The 10th Commandment “You shall not covet your neighbour’s wife [singular] … ” (Exodus 20:17) also presupposes the ideal that there is only one wife. Polygamy is expressly forbidden for church elders (1 Timothy 3:2). And this is not just for elders, because Paul also wrote: “each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband” (1 Corinthians 7:2). Paul goes on to explain marital responsibilities in terms that make sense only with one husband to one wife.

        The example of godly people is also important. Isaac and Rebekah were monogamous. . Other examples were Joseph and Asenath, and Moses and Zipporah. And the only survivors of the Flood were four monogamous couples.

      • Ricki Wagner-Little

        I ABSOLUTELY LOVE READING ALL THIS… “I’M RIGHT, YOU’RE WRONG” LIKE THE GIRL ABOVE… “AND THAT’S THE BOTTOM LINE!” AND THEN A FEW MESSAGES LATER “SO THAT’S WHERE THE BUCK STOPS”. COMPLETELY HILARIOUS, AND LIKE ALL OF US (TRULY SAVED CHRISTIANS WHO DON’T NEED SOMETHING TO ARGUE ABOUT) SITTING HERE IN A COLLEGE PSYCH CLASS, WATCHING EACH NEW POST AND LAUGHING OUR HEADS OFF AT YOU INSULTING, BEING DIVISIVE, PASSIVE-AGGRESSIVE, AND SHOWING NO SIGN OF BEING CHRIST LIKE… THIS IS WHY THE BILLIONS OF GAY CHRISTIANS AROUND THE WORLD LOVE THIS STUFF!!! AS LONG AS YOU ARE ALL FIGHTING EACH OTHER OVER SUCH MINUTE, OCD OPINIONS… ALL OF US WHO TRUST GOD’S WORD THAT WE WERE DETERMINED TO BE WHO WE WERE (EVEN BEFORE OUR BIRTH) WHICH GUYS MEANS GOD CREATED SEXUAL ORIENTATION (GAY, STRAIGHT, BI) IN ORDER THAT THE WORLD BE A BETTER PLACE AND OURS WAS DETERMINED BEFORE WE TOOK ONE BREATH OUTSIDE THE WOMB! O, AND BY THE WAY… THAT’S THE FINAL WORD & THE BOTTOM LINE. NOW GO RELAX AND STOP TAKING EVERYTHING SO PERSONAL!

      • Tom

        Come on now, you can’t see how Solomon has anything to do with this discussion. Really!!! Oh, I see you just want to cherry pick a few clobber texts. Gotcha. I think some folks credibility is gapping.

    • Urbane_Gorilla

      Of course God changes plans..That’s why the New and Old Testaments are radically different.

  • Tom

    mattyalou2

    Yes, Jesus did address homosexuality, but it wasn’t in Matthew 15:19-20. It is in Matthew 19:12. Your projection on Matthew 15:19-20 is way off the charts. What Jesus is saying in Matthew 15 has absolutely nothing to do with Leviticus 18. He is addressing the Pharisees who were the religious right of His day.

  • Eye of Horus

    Look at Mt. 19:12:

    “For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.”

    Two thousand years ago there was no such word as “homosexual.” They were referred to as “eunuchs,” even though they were not clipped. This is a recognition that there are some male children who are born “eunuchs” or “gay” and Jesus did not discriminate them. As he said: “He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.”

    • Tom

      I’m glad i am not the only one who found this text Matthew 19:12.
      Yes indeed, Jesus did talk about it.

    • Marc Raimondi

      Actually n Matthew 19:12, Jesus mentions eunuchs in the context of whether it is good to marry. He says, “There are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.” Jesus identifies three types of “eunuchs” here: natural eunuchs (“born that way”), forced eunuchs (“made eunuchs by others”), and voluntary eunuchs (“those who choose”).

      Natural eunuchs include those who are born with a physical defect, but they also comprise those who are born with no real desire for marriage or sex. Forced eunuchs are those who have been castrated for whatever reason. Voluntary eunuchs are those who, in order to better serve the Lord in some capacity, choose to forego marriage. God calls some people to remain single (and therefore celibate). Paul speaks of those who serve the Lord in their unmarried state in 1 Corinthians 7:7—9.

      Some gay groups argue that Jesus was referring to homosexuals when He mentioned eunuchs who were “born that way.” However, the Bible never uses the words homosexual and eunuch interchangeably. Furthermore, eunuchs are never referred to in Scripture as being in sin, while homosexuality is universally condemned in both the Old and New Testament

    • phil

      Wow you all are so deceived! No person, regardless of who they are attracted to, is to engage in sex outside of the institution of marriage. Which is only between a man and a woman. Period. Period. Period. You gays that want to complain whine away, I’m in the same boat as a single heterosexual man. Im not permitted to have sex either. You either love and obey God or you don’t. That is the only issue relevant. Twist and turn scripture all you want and you will still end up in the lake of fire. Decide to accept His love and deny your lust and you are just as worthy as me (and as undeserving) to receive salvation. Gods love is not by any means out of your reach. It is just as available to you as it is to me. You simply have to follow the same laws I have to.

      • Bella

        Actually, Phil, I’d say *you’re* the one who’s deceived, but you’re
        probably unlikely to face that thought. However, let’s start from the
        beginning:
        1) The concept of marriage as “between a man and a woman” springs from Genesis.
        2)
        Genesis was written as a result of thousands of years of cultural norms
        needing to be codified as religion. (And the point of those cultural
        norms was to regulate society and particularly inheritance.)
        3) Therefore, declaring that marriage can only between a man and a woman is putting effect before cause; society dictated religion, not the other way around.

        I’m sure you’d argue that the gospels are accurate because they were written down so soon after Jesus’ life, yes? Well, get this into your head: the Pentateuch is attributed to Moses, and Moses lived around 1500BCE. The most ardent (young earth) Creationists argue that the earth was created in around 4000BCE. That makes it a minimum 2500-year gap between the supposed definition of marriage and when it was written down. Accurate? Balderdash!

    • Laurie

      A eunich is not a person who is gay or one who is born gay. The proper meaning of the word according to the dictionary is a man who is castrated (has no sex organs) or a child born with the deformity of no sex organs. That doesn’t qualify a person as gay. In Biblical times, some chose castration to focus only on service to God and his Word. —

      A person today who lives a homosexual lifestyle has all their sex organs in tact and they are able to use them. This is not what Jesus was talking about when he was referring to a “eunuch”. A eunuch at that time, is the same today. No sex organs to function with for sexual activity, whether by birth or castration.

      In addition, homosexuality IS termed by a word in the Bible, but it’s not “eunuch”. It stems from the story of Sodom and Gomorrah – Gen 19:5-8 “and they called to Lot and said to him, ‘Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that WE MAY HAVE RELATIONS WITH THEM.’ But Lot went out to them at the doorway, and shut the door behind him, and said, ‘Please, my brothers, DO NOT ACT WICKEDLY.’” This is why the correct word and used in the Greek in the New Testament for homosexuality is literally “a sodomite”.

      The Dictionary defines a eunuch as : a castrated man, especially one formerly employed by Oriental rulers as a harem guard or palace official.

      Therefore, a eunuch is not a person who is gay. Someone has deceived you by misinterpreting this scripture inaccurately.

      1 Corinthians 6:9-10 English Standard Version (ESV)
      9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous[a] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived:neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor MEN WHO PRACTICE HOMOSEXUALITY,[b]10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

      reference notes above. [a] those who do not follow the law of God [b] some versions place the word “sodomites” here instead of homosexuality. Some versions also write “abusers of THEMSELVES with mankind.”

      • Phil Fox Rose

        Laurie, all you’ve done here is proof-texted your existing opinion by finding an evangelical Christian bible translation that agrees with you. In the two translations used by the Roman Catholic Church in America: the NRSV says “male prostitutes, sodomites” — all serious bible scholars agree that sodomite refers to either clients of male prostitutes or rapists; and the NAB, the Vatican’s own translation and the only translation approved by the USCCB for use in mass, says “nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites” and in the notes specifically says that the term translated as sodomites refers to the clients of those boy prostitutes.

      • Laurie

        Phil, a sodomite IS a person that engages in homosexual activity. That was clearly outlined in scripture that I pointed out. It’s not any one churches translation.

      • Andy Slaven

        A sodomite is also anyone who engages in oral sex, which is by definition, sodomy. If you have ever given or received oral sex, you are a sodomite in God’s eyes and no different than those you hate in God’s name ao much.

        Since Jesus had nothing to say at all on the subject, I think it a bit more than arrogant to pretend your opinions matter to anyone.

        And God did change his laws…according to Christians anyway. The 613 commandmenta that Moses brought from God were replaced entirely by the Great Commandment as brought by Jesus.

        It seems you are trying to make God in your image instead of growing and learning as one formed in His.

      • Laurie

        See that’s just the problem Andy. It seems to be that everyone things that nothing in scripture matters unless Jesus said it. I get the impression that the law of Moses was abolished by Jesus, but Jesus himself said,

        Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have NOT come to abolish them but to FULFILL them.

        Sodomy includes all sexual immorality including homosexuality as pertained to the very story itself in Genesis 19

        4 Before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, all the people from every quarter; 5 and they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that WE MAY HAVE RELATIONS WITH THEM” 6 But Lot went out to them at the doorway, and shut the door behind him, 7 and said, “Please, my brothers, DO NOT ACT WICKEDLY.

        HOMOSEXUALITY is classed under “sodomy” because it was found in Sodom. It is named after where it took place. It’s that simple.

        The Bible plainly states in the New Testament, in Jude 1:7…

        “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange (Greek: different, other)flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”

        I don’t see any mention of “hospitality” I do see “fornication” and “going after strange flesh.” The term “going after strange flesh” is explained to us in Proverbs 7:5 and Romans 1:26-27…

        “That they may keep thee from the strange woman, from the stranger which flattereth with her words.”

        “For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.”

        We also read in 2nd Peter 2:6,7…

        “And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked.”

        Now I’ve outlined any scripture that relates and if you only want to jut believe what you want, it’s your own soul on the line, not mine. The Word of God is plain in your face so if you don’t want to acknowledge what it says, that’s between you and God.

        Not all love is approved by God. We can be led to believe it’s love, but it’s not. It’s a mere shadow of the truth because our own perception can mislead us.

        The conversation keeps going around in circles. As a result, I can see that any effort to show that homosexuality is classed as sodomy falls on deaf ears and so I won’t be responding to any more posts on this website.

      • Andy Slaven

        I never said that homosexuality wasn’t sodomy. I implied that you are moat likely a sodomite yourself. I hope for your soul that you only wear non mixed fiber clothing. I hope for your husband’s soul that he has never shaved his beard. I hope to God that you have never eaten pork or shellfish!

        And on the Sabbath…Heaven help you if you push a button or tie or untie a knot!

        I know you won’t be responding; you are wrong and you know it. You use the name of God to lay heap hate on the shoulders of others. You call him in vanity to curse the existance of others. Remember the next time you call yourself a Christian, so did Hitler.

        Now excuse me, I allowed a woman to try and teach me, making her a witch according to God…and I must not suffer a witch!

      • Laurie

        un no I’m not a sodomite, You have fingers pointing back at you. That’s an insult and uncalled for. I’m afraid that you’re the one that has to answer to God for your judgement,

      • Andy Slaven

        Most adults have engaged in non-vaginal sex, which is sodomy. You are a liar since you posted again. And you are a witch in God’s eyes for trying to teach a man. I am pretty sure God’s punishment for witches is stoning.

        You forsake your fellow man and judge them from an unrighteous position. Jesus would chastise you for your lifestyle, and it is only right that I do as well. He was the son of God, his teachings were on how to live one’s own life, not to judge others.

        All sarcasm aside, you seem to be a poor example of a Christian and have too much hate in your heart to welcome God into it. Jesus did not condemn homosexuals and neither should you.

      • GBN-200

        I never expected, or have been asked, for oral sex. As a christian I believe it to be (at least) a humiliation towards my wife/husband, to expect such gratification.

  • Shelley Kim

    If one reads the bible horizontally (read one event and compare it to what another said about the same event – a clue: it’s quite contrary) as opposed to vertically, one would realize that there are an inordinate amount of very important inconsistencies. Most of what “Jesus said” was not even said by Jesus. “Christianity” should be called “Paulism”. The Gospels were not even written by Matthew, Mark Luke and John, but by unknown “nobodies”(story-tellers) who didn’t even live at the time of Jesus.

    The Good News is that more and more people are walking away from ordered religion, realizing that it is not credible as our moral compass.

    The problem with the Trinity, Laurie, is that no-one can explain it. Because it’s utter nonsense. First it was decided that there was one God. Then when Jesus was made to believe that he was God, there was some confusion, because now there was two. Then THAT was a problem, because Jesus was talking (praying) to himself. And on and on it went until ‘they’ thought that they had a good enough explanation that would dupe the people of the time.

    The Old Testament is a horror story which, if it is the inspired word of God, means we (you) worship a vicious, judgmental, impotent and evil being. Thank ‘heavens’ that the Bible HAS, in fact, changed and has NOT stood the test of time. There would be massacres, stonings and beatings on a daily basis. And you might even have a couple of slaves at your mercy, whom your husband could rape whenever he pleased. And please don’t let me hear how God sacrificed himself, in the form of Jesus, to make up for the mistakes that were made in the OT, by starting afresh with the NT. Because of this God and his OT teachings, Adam and Eve committed incest, as did Noah’s family. That’s sexually immoral, I’ve been told…

    Homosexuals (as with everyone) … be kind, love one another, don’t harm any beings. You’re good to go (y) You don’t need a book (that rejects and disrespects you, and tells you that you can’t love whom you choose) to tell you what’s right and wrong.

    • Jeffery Surratt

      Jesus always prayed to the father in heaven. What you have to remember is this world has been blinded to the true nature of the creator God. It will all be revealed when Jesus returns and does away with the corrupt man centered governments, that do more harm than good. Satan and the fallen demons are in control of this planet and most of mankind has turned their back on the Creator God. Jesus died so he could reconcile the human race back into his kingdom. Mankind not following the golden rule in the bible, treat others the way you want to be treated, love thy neighbor as thyself, has worked so well for mankind. With all the wars we have raging all over this world. Also, the lie that there is Hell, a place of punishment where all who do not turn from sin will be tortured day and night. Yes some will choose to go against God and in the end be destroyed, but most will choose God’s way once the truth is revealed.

      • dollarbill2208 .

        The problem is that it is unbelievable. Some people’s brains simply cannot possibly accept what you do about jesus. The fact that we have a golden rule is a good thing. Most wars you speak of are because of religious intolerance. More people have been killed in the name of god than for any other reason, specifically the god of islam and christianity. Why did jesus have to sacrifice himself to himself in order to make up for god’s mistakes in the old testament? If god is perfect, why did he make these mistakes to begin with? Why didn’t this happen when say… eve ate that fruit? Instead, he punishes them, and allows them to continue with this behavior for thousands of years, before deciding ok I need to do something about this? Why did he wait this long? Doesn’t this clearly imply that man wrote this book without any supernatural interference?

        You have been brainwashed by the idea that you are a horrible, wretched person who needs to be saved by something we have no evidence of, even if you do just one little thing that might be considered immoral. That’s asinine. Everything that’s in that book is written by man. Man is capable of morality, and teaching morality. Nothing jesus supposedly said is anything that man could not have come up with on our own, which in fact we did… everything. The fact that you have to attribute it to some perfect being for people to believe it just makes it worse to me. If you took out all the supernatural crap, and just left the teachings, you’d have a far superior book, more people would believe it, and therein, I give you the NEW NEW TESTAMENT! :)

      • Tom

        dollarbill
        No you don’t need a NEW NEW TESTAMENT. The one that is there is just fine. It shows the duplicity of the Pharisees, ancient religious right, in all its hypocracy. Jesus rises to the top in spite of the these religionists hating him enough to crucify him. There is a message in the New Testiment, one for the downtrodden, offering love and mercy and a beconning to follow Jesus. The other a stern rebuke to religious people who think they have it altogether and look down on the people they see as low life sinners such as gay. It’s all there, good and bad together. Don’t edit the script.

      • Jeffery Surratt

        You are right Tom. What dollarbill2208 fails to realize is he has been brainwashed by all the lies told about GOD. And some of the wars he talks about where started by godless fools who where just drunk with power and greedy sobs. Where is bob’s evidence man without GOD could do better? Oh wait it is all around us. SNAFU!

      • JuliePurple

        True, Tom, there is a lot of good stuff there. But I have to agree with Dollarbill; it would benefit from a bit of editing. I wish more people would go the route you seem to be going, which is focusing on the good stuff.

      • Tom

        Julie
        But it’s all there, the good and the bad for a reason. You see there is God and there is an opposing one, Satan. God gets blamed for a lot of things, that really has Satan’s patent on it. God is light, but Satan is darkness. So you might say that I believe it is better to turn on the light than curse the darkness.

      • JuliePurple

        Well, Tom, we’ll have to agree to disagree on the subject of Satan. I don’t think it/he exists, and you do. I think it/he is a symbol of negativity, although primitive peoples believed it was an actual being. Many characteristics have been necessary for survival throughout history; it’s hard to turn off some of the more aggressive ones in times of peace. It’s all in the mix of being human. There doesn’t need to be any outside source, except for those who want to put the blame for bad behaviour on someone else.
        As my Mom used to say, “Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow do!” (The Shadow being Lamont Kranston, crime fighter.) See, now you’ve got me being silly, with your collie/pit bull joke!

        Yes, back to the original subject:
        What makes you say gay folks are on the side of “Satan”? More than the rest of all the people?
        How many gay people do you know?
        One of my oldest gay friends (I’ve known him for 47 years) is one of the kindest people I know. His current work is as a hospice volunteer. His partner is the sweetest, gentlest, kindest person, too, and these two are devoted to each other, and have been for many years. And my best friend is lesbian, works her butt off helping disabled people, volunteers all over the county for the arts and for farmers… These are just the two I know the best. Tell me how they are acting as though they were in league with “Satan”?

      • Tom

        Julie!
        You need to go back and reread my post you just commented on! where in the world did you jump to the conclusion that I was saying gays were in league with Satan??? Quite the opposite dear. I was refering to gay bashing christians, sort of in a context of God thinking
        “with friends like this, who needs to worry about Satan.”
        Get it now. I hope so. Oh yes, I believe exactly what you say about your gay friends. I knew a gay couple like that too. Much softer gentler touch. No Rambo there. How in the world did you think I aquired a better understanding of gays. Many of my fellow christians need to get their lazy butts out of the pew and go out and meet some of these people, instead of bunkering down for their last stand against them. That old line of” love the sinner,but hate the sin” is a crock. Not trying to be condescending here, but Julie I think you may have a hard time following
        some of my reasoning here, because you aren’t a believer. But that’s okay. God loves you too:)

      • JuliePurple

        Actually, Tom, you need to reread your previous post as well. The syntax was unclear. When you wrote, “if they are on God’s side like they claim, then why do they act like they are in league with Satan?” it seemed to me that the “they” referred to gays. Particularly so because you introduced the paragraph with “Now back to the original subject of this thread”.

      • Tom

        Julie
        I see maybe I should have given absolute clarity by saying gay bashing cristians rather then the word “they.” I didn’t see the necessity of repeating who I was talking about in the previous sentence, which were gay bashing christians. I think you went back two sentences instead of one. Oh well, it only goes to show you how perceptions of what one sees and the other hears sometimes in internet discussion can get mixed up. A face to face discussion would cleared this up in a heartbeat.

        I hope what you were taught in school was not toxic religion. I got a dose of toxic religion growing up. I won’t detail it here. One thing I learned is that toxic religion is rooted in fundamentalism which i have deliberately avoided.

        Toxic religion= anything that is not fundamental to a belief system should be treated like heresy and stamped out.

        My definition of toxic religion is really a definiton of extreme fundamentalism. But think about it a minute

        Islamic fundamentalism is where terrorist are made.
        Back to my definiton of toxic religion(christian fundamentalism). The christian fundamentalists have treated gays like dirt for years. All there gooey mush about compassion for the sinner, but not the sin, is just that mush. You see they define gays as sinful parias when in fact the sinful pariahs in the relgious worldview are these toxic religious fundsamentalists.

        In my christian worldview Jesus was anything but a fundamentalist. He was really a revolutionary. In my worldview it was the fundamentalists who crucified Him.
        In my worldview those gays who do go off a deep end into promiscuous lifestyle, do so because toxic religion drives them there from rejection. In my worldview these type of religionists, first s— on gays and then turn around and kick them for stinking. In my worldview, I think Jesus really get upset when religious folks put down people and then kick them while they are down. In my worldview, Jesus came to bind up the wounded and heel the broken hearted, not add to further hurt like the toxic religionists do. So in my worldview I believe Jesus would be very gracious and loving to all gays, which answers the question asked on this thread to begin with. I hope I have said it plainly enough for you to follow from my standpoint. Certainly with your upbringing you can put yourself in my shoes long enough to get the drift of where I am coming from.
        Now I better run before some fundamentalist shoots me in the back:)

      • Jeffery Surratt

        see my comment to Tom

      • JuliePurple

        Dollarbill, I agree with your basic premises totally. Although I don’t think there was an actual “Eve”, still, for people who do believe it, your presentation poses some tough questions. Well done.

      • Tom

        julie
        Not so fast now. Yes there was Eve or there would be no sons Cain and Abel. God created Adam and Eve, and told them to be fruitful and multiply.

      • JuliePurple

        Well, Tom, here’s another “agree to disagree” thing, eh? You’re thinking that the bible is literally true, and I’m thinking it is basically tradition and metaphor. So in that case, yes, you would think there was an actual Adam and Eve. Me, well, remember when we discussed evolution?
        Hominidae, Ardipithecus, Australopithecus, Homo Habilis, Homo ergaster, Homo Erectus, Neanderthal, Cro-Magnon and all that… evolved.
        The be fruitful and multiply thing, that’s a natural occurrence given sufficient food supply. The thing about it that causes a problem is when species overgraze their habitat, which is what, metaphorically speaking, humans are doing. It becomes seriously problematic when people take it as a current command, and think they’re doing something great when they breed like rabbits. To my way of thinking, the more gay folks, the better: fewer couples adding to the already alarming numbers of humans on this planet.

      • Tom

        Oh dear, here we go breaking down in communicating again. I think I probably shouldn’t be using biblical concepts to get something across that is totally foreign to you. We are two different belief systems, each not able to wrap our mind around what the other is saying. Sorta like an Italian and a German trying to talk to each other in their native tongue, with neither able to understand what the other is saying. I’m sorry this has slipped back into an evolution/creation exchange. Never really wanted to go there.
        But maybe one thing we can agree on, with gay couples there are no unwanted pregnancies, so there are no need for abortions. That sorta takes care of two bird with one stone. This has been an intersting conversation with you.
        Hopefully some onlookers reading all this will see that
        there are christians like me who aren’t narrow minded bigots, and that most gays are not morons.

      • JuliePurple

        Tom, it’s not that the biblical concepts are foreign to me; I went to a Catholic school for 12 years, and Catechism classes in addition to that. I am very familiar with the
        concepts. I’d say that our difficulty in communicating is more like that German and Italian you mentioned trying to speak to each other, but with a different take on it: One (let’s say the Italian) speaks both Italian and German, but the
        German person refuses to believe that Italian is a valid language, because he only has knowledge of German. Tell me, how much science have you studied?

        But yes, we certainly can agree that unwanted pregnancies are seldom an issue with gay couples.

      • Tom

        Julie
        You telling me that you went to Catholic schools for 12 years tells me a lot. Some of sweatest most dedicated christians I have had the pleasure of knowing are Catholics. However Roman Catholocism tops the list in my book of toxic religion. Get out jail fees with confessionals, indulgences, purgatory, ad nauseum.
        I don’t want to indulge in Catholic bashing, but I know you get the picture from your youth.

        You mention that religion is for primative people. I’ll take that as a compliment. That’s just the way i live life, simple and uncomplicated. I don’t need to understand infinity to survive. And by the way, I am not some counter culture hippy. I am a retired logger and I’m a Republican. But don’t tell anyone about the last one willya. I don’t want any tea party people gunning me down.

      • JuliePurple

        Tom, when you misunderstood a comment I had made a few days ago, what I wrote in response to that was, “I apologize for not being more clear.” I reread it and saw that conclusions had been drawn that were not substantiated by what I had written (if you’ll look at it carefully, you will see that), but nevertheless, I figured it was just good manners to apologize and clarify. Now, I reread your text again twice, and as I said before, the syntax *is* ambiguous. Listen, good writing is a skill that I am still learning. We can all learn.

        If you’ll reread what I wrote, I never said that religion is for primitive people. I said the creation concepts as portrayed in Genesis are the products of a primitive imagination, or something to that effect (I can’t locate the message now). I’ve noticed that you seem to equate acceptance of the bible as literal truth, with belief in god or religion in general. They are all very, very different things. Let me be clear here. I think
        1) There may be a god (although not as depicted in the bible), I don’t have enough information to know one way or another.
        2)some religions or parts of religion are fine.
        3)the bible is not a reliable source of information. Although those three things may seem synonymous to some people, they are in fact separate concepts. Primitive is not the same as simple, by the way, but I don’t think we need to get into that, right? Incidentally, I *was* a counter culture hippie. I lived in a commune when I was 18 – 20 years old. That was over 40 years ago, so now I guess I’m just an old hippie. Well, I’m an
        artist. It sort of fits. :-)
        You’re Republican? Gosh. Your secret is safe with me!

      • michellenj

        No most wars are not due to religious intolerance, although some political powers have over time used such as an excuse for a political gain. More people have been killed in fact by aethistic communism, and in historically a rather short period of time. Let’s be serious, Mao and Stalin made Hitler look like an amateur. Then there was Pol Pot, others….do see the website google memorial for victims of communism.
        God did not make a mistake which required Jesus’s sacrafice. Human beings refused God’s grace and thus needed redemption, it was our mistake – man’s various mistakes. God gave us free will. Free will enables the existence of the highest human virtues. Love for example, would not be love if we didn’t have free will – by its nature it cannot be forced, coerced or demanded – by its nature it must be freely given, self-donation. Same for courage for example – courage exists when lets say a fireman sees a blaze evalutes the risk to his own person and yet acts for the benefit of another, if someone held a gun to his head and made him, that would not be courage. If we were all forced to “behave” we would be robots. We choose, and sometimes we choose badly.
        Punishment is meant ultimately to create reflection, and conversion. It has been said by a wise man that he learned more from his failures than from his successes (meaning ultimately each failure caused him to rethink and he gained wisdom). Such it is with salvation history, I would recommend that you try to read some decent commentary on it and why different periods of time were significant – humanity had to go through various trials and failures.
        Christians do not believe, and I don’t that I am a horrible wretched person. Nope, not even close. We believe we were made in the image and likeness of God (and we hold him in pretty high esteem). We are imperfect, and we can always strive to do better – to be kinder, to be more patient, more generous, more loving.
        I would also recommend to you a book called the case for Christ, written by a former aethist who began a journey to dissuade his wife from her christian belief. found there was plenty of historical evidence, author Lee Strobel. By the way, we Catholics believe that people who live moral lives can possibly be “saved” (fundamentalist term catholics try not to use too often) outside the Church.
        So curious, how have you formed your conscience in determining what is moral? what are your guideposts?

    • Tom

      Shelly
      So your bottom line in the Golden Rule, “Do unto others as you would have tehem do unto you.” That is a universal truth to all, believers, atniests, you name it. Well guess who said it, Jesus Find a bible and read Luke 6:31.
      that teaching was the entire motto of his ministry here on earth.

  • Laurie

    If
    Jesus never said it, that’s because it was already made clear in the
    Old Testament. Jesus never names homosexuality as a sin, but Jesus
    did condemn immoral sexuality. Matthew 15:19-20 Homosexuality is however, mentioned as a sin,
    in the Old Testament and the writings of Paul in the New Testament.
    When Jesus spoke against immoral sexuality, he was speaking to Jews
    who knew the laws of Moses and he would never contradict the Old
    Testament laws, because Jesus is one with the Father, who gave those laws. (John 10:30) Jesus came to fulfill it, not abolish it. Therefore, they knew that
    “immoral sexuality” included homosexuality, according to
    the Law. If it was true, that by not mentioning homosexuality, that
    it makes it permissible, then this would make the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, divided on the
    subject. We all know this is not possible because God does not
    change, according to the times and cultures, nor does his Word
    change.(Malachi 3:6, Numbers 23:19, Hebrews 13:8) —- Some
    also believe that when Jesus spoke of eunuchs in the Bible, that he
    was referring to people who were gay. The correct definition of a
    eunuch is a man who has been “castrated”, has a sexual
    defect or impotency. Eunuchs are never referred to as being in sin,
    although Jesus says, some “were born that way”, (Matthew
    19:12) but homosexuality is called a sin. Scripture is misinterpreted because they believe that when Jesus said, some “were born that way”
    that he was talking about people who were gay. This misinterpretation of scripture seeks to justify sin. It is better to accept it as sin,
    and confess the struggle. daily to God, then to deny it, and lie to
    themselves..

    • JuliePurple

      You wrote that god’s word does not change, implying that all the rules and restrictions of the Old Testament are currently valid. So tell me, do you eat shellfish, walk around with your head uncovered, have a tattoo or pierced ears, or wear mixed fabric clothing? If you do, do you “accept it as sin”?
      If your premise is that god’s word does not change, then the only logical conclusion one can make is that if it has changed, then that wasn’t god’s word. And if that part wasn’t valid, then the rest is suspect as well.

      I just think it’s sad when people use excuses to justify their own bigotry and try to make it seem holy.

      • Tom

        Julie
        Yes there are a lot of thing s in the Old Testiment that are Levitcal laws and ceremonial laws that have no modern application. They are there as a history lesson, and probably need go no further than that. Say not meaning to dig at you, but I must draw a comparison
        Your thinking the entire Bible is suupect and should be thrown out just because you don’t understand it, ranks up there with people who read a story about some predator molesting little boys and then conclude that all gays are predators. Think about it. Pretty sick huh? I’ll check out busted Halo articles “Bible Boot Camp and Bible Beaters. Just by the titles I can pretty much believe I will find some things that resonate. :)

      • JuliePurple

        Hi, Tom.
        I apologize for not being more clear. And do bear in mind that my comment was in response to Laurie’s above, wherein she stated (among other things) that the bible is all God’s word which does not change (I have vastly simplified her posting, but that’s the gist as I understand it.) My saying that the entire bible is suspect is in that regard.
        To recap, I said, “If your premise is that god’s word does not change, then the only logical conclusion one can draw is that if it has changed, then that wasn’t god’s word. And if that part wasn’t valid, then the rest is suspect as well.”

        So my point was that what is suspect is whether any given part of the bible is “from god” or cultural bias or tradition.

        I don’t think any part of the bible should be thrown out. It is a fascinating glimpse into the mindset of people in that part of the world at the time. And it’s a reminder that we have in some ways grown up: for example, we no longer think slavery is acceptable; nor do we execute individuals for a slew of minor offenses. We’re evolving, eh? ;-)

    • MplsMikey

      Well, the Old Testament also includes lots of other “laws” that are clearly absurd or were made at a time when such “laws” were useful in preventing the spread of disease. For example, Lev.15:19-24 (no contact with a woman while she is menstruating), Lev.11:10 (eating shellfish is an “abomination”), Lev.19:19 (no planting of more than one crop in the same field and no wearing garments made from two different kinds of thread).

      Are you seriously suggesting that Jesus condoned stoning or death for these “offenses” (even though Leviticus does for many of them)? Or maybe, just maybe, Jesus realized a lot of these are stupid?

      • Tory Quinton

        Actually Jesus is on record endorsing the stoning of an adulterous woman. He never said Do not stone this woman… He never Said stoning is wrong. He said that the woman should be stoned IF her accusers were without sin. If her accusers brought forth the proper witness as proscribed by law then there is no reason to think Jesus would have contradicted the law. In fact Jesus specifically said of some people that they would be cast into outer darkness. In other words Jesus was not the mild mannered peacenick hippie as the emergent church would pretend. Jesus made a whip to drive away money lenders. He rebuked devils. He called Peter Satan to make a point. His resurection ripped the temple veil apart and he crashed the gates of hell. You are free to reject His story. But you can t simply alter His story to suit a modern agenda. What is that agenda? To create a self help ego affirming Christ who cares not one whit about sin. That christ might make it easier to justify your sin. But that christ is powerless to offer salvation. Just like the Shepard he was symbolically gentleness and ferocity go hand in hand. Or better still like a good father who loves his child even as he corrects his behavior that metaphor is unfortunately lost today because the same people who water down Christ diminish fatherhood.

    • John Carson

      Malachi 3:6 – For I am the Lord, I change not.

      Jonah 3:10 – So God changed his mind and did not do what he planned.

      • Tom

        John
        Very good! But keep in mind that God’s jugement was conditional.
        He was going to destroy Ninevah because of it’s wickedness. Because they repented God didn’t go through with Plan A- destroy it. He was able to do Plan B- not destroy it. The difference is they repented, so God didn’t destroy it.

        I have an interesting take on Sodom and Gomorrah . I you care to here it just answer this reply. I guaranty you it is unique.

      • John Carson

        Sure, Tom. Please do share :-)

  • Bro’ Joe

    If homosexuals sincerely believed that it was not condemned by God…
    then they would not spend so much time trying to defend it. Period.

    • JuliePurple

      Not at all. It’s more that there is unfair cultural bias against them. Think of voting rights in the U.S.A. Women and minority groups spent a lot of time trying to defend their right to vote; if they hadn’t, they wouldn’t be able to vote today. It’s the same sort of thing, in that in order to counter a long-standing prejudice, a lot of effort is necessary.

      • Tom

        You are right. It often takes a jackhammer to break away hard set concrete.

      • JuliePurple

        And we have so many examples of that right in this forum.

      • John Carson

        Exactly, and we’d still have slavery in this country and the earth would still be flat and women would still be property. Anyone see a pattern here?

      • Jeffery Surratt

        Your pattern is playing out for real in the Middle East. But, I see very little condemnation of the Muslims or how they treat women. Just because you do not agree with Christians, does not mean you have all the answers. GOD will some day return and reveal the truth, then we will all be much better off. Mankind throughout history has done a miserable job on this planet. Jesus came into the world to save it, not condemn it.

      • John Carson

        I am a Christian.

      • Jeffery Surratt

        Sorry, John I thought I was replying to JuliePurple. We have been talking about evolution. I just can not believe life came from nothing. But, I do believe our true understanding of GOD is limited by all our biases.

      • Andy Slaven

        You cannot believe that life came from nothing, but you can believe that an omnipotent force created itself and then everything else from nothing? And don’t fall back on the nonsense answer of alpha and omaga, without beginning or end, otherwise I will just claim my arguments without fault and demand your servitude.

      • Jeffery Surratt

        Until someone gives me a better answer than the Bible, with a Creator God, I will stick with it. Evolution is not the answer. You can claim anything you want, you do not deserve anything from me.

    • MplsMikey

      By that logic, if homosexuality weren’t fine in the eyes of Jesus, then right-wing conservative Christians wouldn’t have to spend so much time trying to condemn it.

      • jess

        Amen…! Great response!!!!

      • John Carson

        Truth!

    • Tom

      Well if you were bashed and made to feel like scum wouldn’t you see a need to offer an alternative look at it. Period. WWJD

  • Becca

    This is for whomever hears and wishes to understand: Jesus and the Father are one. Jesus said this, John 10:30 ” I and my Father are one.” So what ever the Father has said Jesus has said. God is a never changing God. So as you read the Old Testament, God clearly speaks against Homosexuality. Yet it is good to remember that God hates sin not man. So you can be delivered if you only come to Him, believe in your heart that He is Lord and you will be saved. God did not form anyone to be gay and If you only ask Him and persevere with Him he will change you and make you new. I love you all and He loves you soooo much. God bless. :) p.s I don’t know anything but what God has taught me. Seek Him on your own, read the bible, and pray(talk) to Him. He wants an intimate relationship with you.
    -love Becca

    • idyo

      That’s excellent news. So we can look forward to meeting Hitler in heaven then?
      I mean, he was Catholic, and had advanced knowledge of his impending death. The likely scenario sees him praying for forgiveness before his end, and meaning it. And because God hates the sin, and not the man, he would absolve him of his sins and welcome him with open arms, right?
      I tell you what, you can have tea and crumpets with a genocidal maniac (and with Hitler too), and I’ll be content to live and love in this life on Earth, and feed the worms with my remains when I’m gone.

      • gooder1

        Idyo,

        Actually you bring up a good point about Hitler. And indeed he was a Catholic in his youth, but of course he strayed far from God in his adulthood. But if Hitler indeed had a true, last minute conversion of heart, and went to sacramental confession to a validly ordained priest, and received the absolution of the Church, then he would one day enter into heaven for all eternity. Of course he would spend a long, long time in Purgatory first. But we all know how obsessively narcissistic tyrants such as Hitler were/are, and so it is highly unlikely that he would ever bend the knees of his heart to the Master of the Universe. So … probably not.

      • idyo

        Purgatory? He was single handedly responsible for the deaths of not only the millions of Jews, but every man, woman, and child in the second world war. That’s over 54 million people in total. So killing 54M people gets you some time in purgatory, followed by ETERNITY in heaven because you prayed before you died… right?
        Obviously neither of us can state his repentance or otherwise as facts, we’re just talking hypotheticals here. How likely it is, either way, is redundant. But the fact is, according to the Catholic church and its guidelines for entry into eternal bliss, Hitler could be in heaven.

      • littlewitch

        If Hitler was sincerely and profoundly sorry for his sins however horrific, God will forgive him, according to the Catholic faith. he may have to do penance for his sins but his SINCERE regret would have resonance with the Almighty.

        God will forgive Hitler but Hitler needs to supplicate and feel true contrition. The idea that Adolph Hitler would be able to ever ask forgiveness from a Higher Authority would truly be the return of the prodigal …but difficult to imagine.

        I pray that this derranged soul may come to understand the depth of his evil and beg for forgiveness . Most of all am grateful for a concept of a Divine Authority so patient, understanding and Vast that such crazy destructive behavior, truly repented, would be forgiven. Thats Love.

        Sins of the Priests and the lameness of the church aside…This definition of love and forgiveness is why I will always be a Catholic.

      • Truther Truthonhigh

        These are the thoughts that the phony religionists, you know, the ones that repent when in prison (conveniently) and always after being caught, not of any free will but of necessity to continue fooling those that believe in Fairy Tales told by some of the worst scoundrels ever..

      • littlewitch

        @Truther….I did not say that if Hitler made a phony self serving apology The divine Authority would be duped and Hitler would be forgiven. Hitler or anyone guilty of horrendous crimes would have to make a sincere, heartfelt confession and feel true remorse for egregious horrendous behavior and SINCERELY ask for forgiveness. Geez

      • gooder1

        All this talk of Hitler merely serves as an example of how forgiving God is, if we sincerely turn to him in sorrow for what we’ve done. In each of our lives, we’ve all had our mini-Hitler moments, and … expect God to forgive us without question. When our children, or spouses, sin against us, we would not be parents, or good spouses, if we never forgave them, holding perpetual grudges. That would not be the definition of Love. And since God is Love (1John 4:8), he only wants us to return to him, saying I love you, sincerely. And if we do so, he returns that Love a thousand fold. And if Hitler would have done that, well, God is going to be the God of Love. The bigger question, though, is whether Hitler would have had a sincere change of heart? And to that I would say probably not.

      • Tom

        gooder1
        ….mini-Hitler moments….. what a pathetic comparison.
        Hitler and Satan are going into the lake of fire.

      • Tom

        littlewitch
        What are you smoking to even make such a statement.
        Oh, I get it. He’s going to have to pay the RCC a whole heap of money for restitution. Ah, I get it it’s the money.
        That’s what it’s always been in the RCC with confessionals and indulgences. What a farce.

      • littlewitch

        T is not about the Church it is about …nevermind. Read the thread

      • Jeffery Surratt

        Why would anyone have to do penance for his sins? Jesus died on the cross and anyone who asks to be forgiven, repents of sin, is forgiven. All churches have been corrupted by Satan and world governments..

      • Tom

        littlewitch
        Hitler committed suicide rather than face defeat. How in the world can he repent? He’s dead! How can a church that has such a bloody history during the Dark ages teach anything about love and forgiveness? Sins of the priests?
        Jesus would have put a millstone around their neck and cast them into the depth of the sea. Read Matthew 18:6.
        Jesus must have thought it very worthy of the supreme punishment, because it is recorded again in Luke 17:2 and Mark 9:42. Those child molesters should be lined up and forced to walk to the end of the plank holding a bag of cement!

      • littlewitch

        Hitler was being used as an example. However Just because he is dead does not mean there can be no transaction between his spirit and Divine Authority.

        The notion of forgiveness being discussed are not about the Church, But about the nature of love and Forgiveness set forth in the gospels and attributed to Christ.

        Luke 17:3 Be on your Guard! If your brother sins rebuke him. If he repents, forgive him.

        The conversation was not about your ideas of retribution. It is not about the merits of excusing or excoriating horrible behavior.
        Rather it was about the circumstance upon which people who have committed horrible acts might seek forgiveness from a Divine Force more forgiving , and patient than most people in human form.

      • Tom

        littlewitch

        Well we are not on the same page. I don’t believe there is communication between God and the dead.

      • Tom

        idyo
        No way is Hitler going to be in Heaven! Not only does he deserve the other place, but he would be miserable in heaven. Imagine what it would be like for a serial psychopathic killer to have to live in church.

        There is no such place as purgatory. That is a Catholic lie.
        I know several very good devout Catholics, but Roman Catholicism is built on lies, myths, and persecution of the worst order during the Dark ages.,

      • Chip

        You are living in a delusion.

    • beowolfe

      God is a never changing God.
      Sorry, Becca…..the bible is full of examples of God changing his mind about something.

      • John Carson

        Malachi 3:6 – For I am the Lord, I change not.

        Jonah 3:10 – So God changed his mind and did not do what he planned.

    • Deb Furlin

      Can you prove that God said anything? Or is it just a “belief”?

      • gooder1

        Deb.

        God Almighty is master of both the natural order, as well as the supernatural order. God: Father, Son, & Holy Spirit, the angels (good & bad), and the souls of humans, both the living and the dead (good & bad), comprise the supernatural order. Everything else falls within the framework of the natural order. The Angels, because they have been given full knowledge of God, made one single choice for all eternity, which can never be changed. Those who choose to love God are the holy angels, and those who chose to defy God, have been cast from his presence for all eternity, and are now considered demons. They will never see the face of God again. Man, however, has been born into a diminished state, one that is not privy to the truth of God’s existence and sovereignty. So in man’s case, his love for God is based upon belief, a belief that is imperfect because God has not fully revealed himself to each and every man, woman, and child. Instead God has revealed himself in a limited way to certain humans, who have been given the duty to inform us of the reality of God by their witness. This is both good and bad. It is bad because we can always say, hey I never saw God, so how can I be sure??, it is all hearsay, etc. etc. On the flip side it is good, because God requires us to make a leap of faith to love him, and when we do, we become greater than the angels, who only responded to the Truth that was presented to them. So we, then, respond by Faith. And due to this deprived state that we are in (unlike the angels), we can be forgiven over and over again for our failures. The only time we are truly faced with an eternal decision is on our deathbeds. Up until that point, we can return to God over and over again. And each time we do so, he expresses his love for us in greater and greater ways, because we have overcome the enticements of this world, as well as the temptations of the fallen angels (who will everything in their power to see that we will also suffer the same fate as theirs), to turn to God–through Faith–and love Him beyond all other things. So to answer your question, yes, we must believe by Faith. But that is a good thing. For if we had perfect knowledge, with only ONE choice to make for all eternity, then many of us would never see the light of heaven.

      • JuliePurple

        Hi, Gooder
        So, basically, your answer to Deb Furlin is, “no”, because what she asked was, can you *prove* it. Just sayin’. :-)

      • gooder1

        Hi Julie, Yes, you are correct: there is no way to prove God’s existence
        in the classic sense; Faith is necessary. But I should qualify that
        statement. The Catholic Church classifies Divine Revelation (the Truth
        of God, which has been revealed by God), as Public Revelation. In other
        words, all of the Church’s teachings are based upon the Teachings of
        Jesus, and those of the Old Covenant. That is what the Church considers
        to be Public Revelation. The Catholic Church has
        always taught that all Public Revelation ended with the death of the
        last Apostle, which would be John in AD 98. So when the Church presents
        her Teachings, they are strictly based upon the revelations of Christ
        from the First Century, and the way those Truths have been developed and
        interpreted by the Church since that time. Now there have been what the
        Church calls Private Revelations over the last 19 centuries, however, those can never establish any new Truths, but merely reiterate what the
        Church already teaches. The Bible clearly states
        that we are in the new and final covenant with God, so there can be no
        other (i.e., Revelation is closed). Oftentimes, though, Private
        Revelation can help a person solidify his/her faith. For example, we could look at a common Church-approved, Private Revelation, known as
        Fatima, in 1917. There were three young children who were apparently
        visited by Mary on three occasions in 1917. And during the first visit,
        Mary told the children that two of them would be taken home to heaven
        soon by God, but that the third would go on to live a very long life,
        and would witness the conversion of Russia, which she promised during
        the apparitions. And indeed it happened just that way. Two of the
        children, Jacinta & Francisco, both died within two years from the flu. And the third, Lucia, went on to live until 2005, and indeed
        witnessed the 1991 fall of Communism in Russia, and the reopening of
        Churches there. Now the interesting thing was that during the time of
        the apparitions, Russia was not communist, nor did it have any issue
        with suppression of the Christian Faith there; in fact the country was very Orthodox. So in
        the full sense, Mary predicted the de-Christianization of Russia through
        the rise of Communism, but also the fall of Communism, and the return
        of the Russian people to the Faith. So many people look at this
        apparition, and say, “wow, it happened just as Mary said it would.” And their
        faith is strengthened by that. Of course many people have other mystical
        experiences that help them too. But anyway, I
        think I explained in my response to Deb as to why God has not fully
        revealed Himself to all of us, so I will not reiterate that. But I just
        wanted to state the difference between Private, and Public Revelation.
        And that the Church does not use Private Revelation to either establish,
        or change, any of its teachings, nor has it ever, but does occasionally
        approve certain ones, provided they stand up to its rigorous
        investigative process regarding them. So to answer your
        question, no, there is no way to prove the existence of God, but many
        have received special private visits from heaven which have strengthened
        their faith, as well as the faith of the people around them. So, accepting Public Revelation requires “Faith”: “blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” John 20:29.
        .

      • JuliePurple

        Hi, Gooder
        When lacking proof, it is expedient to emphasize faith: to direct the attention away from what is lacking.
        As Mark Twain said, “Faith is believing what you know ain’t so.” :-)

      • gooder1

        I believe from its beginnings, the Church has emphasized Faith. It has never been about using the natural order for proof of God’s existence. And I can’t believe Mark Twain would use “ain’t!” What a poor example for us all. Just joking. But Faith in the Christian sense is not about believing what you know isn’t so, but rather believing in something that is very reasonable, and genuinely probable.

      • JuliePurple

        Well, of course it would emphasize faith. Because there IS no proof.
        “Probable”??!! Right. Unnatural conception, miraculous healings, rising from the dead, mysterious multiplication of resources… probable. Gooder, my friend, you have a very strange idea of “probable”. To someone like me, those all seem pretty incredible — that’s “incredible” as in: “not believable”. Extraordinary. And extraordinary claims need extraordinary proof. And there is no proof at all. None.
        No wonder faith is emphasized!

      • gooder1

        Absence of “tangible” proof does not equate to proof of absence. If I were God I might do things differently, but I am not, so I have to try to understand Who establishes the principles, and what those principles are. And it is not as if God has never spoken to anyone, or never came to earth in human form, but rather he has only done so selectively. And as for me personally, well I have been touched by God more than a few times in my life, and am fully convinced of his existence. But for a person such as yourself, well, you would require a different type of “proof.” I am not sure what level of criteria would satisfy that threshold, but certainly God does. If that level for you is infinity, then you’ve already come to a conclusion, and your mind is forever locked in stone, and can never be changed. If that is the case, then God could stand before you, and you’d continue to deny his existence. But if that level is only higher bar,then your search should continue. If your case is the latter, then I will throw a challenge your way. Pray the Rosary each day, for one month. with an open mind, and for the “honest” intention of really wanting to know whether God exists, and if so, is Jesus Christ truly the Son of God? Or just asking with an open mind to have the Truth of God revealed to you personally. Praying the Rosary should be accompanied by a request to Mary each day asking her to help you with this. I believe if you do that, your questions will be answered in a way that fully complies with your standards. If however, your mind is unchangeable, then praying the Rosary with a hardened heart, one that is impenetrable, will yield very little. So think it over. If God exists, and all is what Jesus said it would be, then wouldn’t you want to experience that joy for all eternity? To use your phrase: “just saying.”

      • JuliePurple

        Gooder, we’ve been over this before. Please re-read my previous comments (including the ones on the “Where in the bible does it say that Mary is sinless…” thread). It seems you’re bringing up old issues to distract from the point. I wish you’d just be honest and say, “No, I know my claims can’t be proven, but I choose to believe because it gives me comfort” or whatever it is. It’s OKAY to have faith, knowing you can’t prove something. Just don’t try to pretend about it.

      • gooder1

        Hi Julie, In an earlier post you spoke of different paths to the same destination, and then left that thought with a paraphrase from the Bhagavad Gita, an ancient Indian text from ~3000 BC, which speaks of the afterlife, spiritual life, promotion to the heavenly plantets, etc., written by Lord Krishna, who many believe to be God. So I would ask you then, for proof that Hinduism is true. And why is it that we can believe that this text was actually written by Lord Krishna? And if there is no proof of it, then why would you even quote this text, and speak of a “destination,” if there is no tangible way to prove that this text was actually written by Lord Krishna, or that he even really existed? Maybe he was just a figurative person, who never actually lived and walked the earth, but was instead simply made up. Maybe this whole Hinduism thing was designed by those in power to control the population. But back to proof, please provide for me proof that there is a spiritual “destination” that you spoke of in your reply. And if there is not, then please refrain from using those arguments to diminish Christ, who actually walked the earth, and was crucified. We know that from historical documents. And we still have many of the actual thorns from the crown of thorns he wore, we have actual earthquake fingerprints that truly show there was an earthquake on the day he was crucified, etc. Additional dating work still needs to be done, but we could also have what could very well be his burial cloth with his impression still visible on it (shroud of Turin), which, if true, actually proves his resurrection. There are many “proofs” but many people just choose to ignore these. So, proof comes in many forms, but I myself would like to know what proof there is that Lord Krishna actually lived, and wrote the Bhagavad Gita, and what proof is there that this text is true?

      • JuliePurple

        Gooder, you *really* need to re-read my earlier posts. I compared the Christian myths to those of other paths, saying they all have about the same credibility… which is to say, they are *all* based on myths. Speaking of myths, the actual thorns? Really. Let me ask you, do used car sellers get a really big smile on their faces when they see you coming?
        About a spiritual destination… no proof for nirvana, heaven, the Summerlands, or any other one. You seem to be getting upset, which might be why you are ignoring points I’ve already clarified.

      • Chip

        Not mention that there is also much mythology on virgin births and gods (and goddesses) who through some divine intervention (but not sex) brought a child (human)-god into existence. I was raised Catholic and taught to believe God, Jesus and the HS are one in the same, but Jesus was the manifestation of God on earth through a virgin birth. Do you know how many god-to-human births occurred in mythology and other religions? Even before the Bible was written, Egypt has their own human-god births. So what we’re supposed to believe is that all of those are false, but the Christian one is real?

      • JuliePurple

        Exactly! It’s a continuation of traditional story lines, with the names changed to suit the group. It’s all allegorical, but people mistake it for fact.

      • gooder1

        Chip,
        The Church has always taught that even the religions that have not been given clear revelation from God, have aspects of the truth embedded within their teachings. God reaches out to all people, even the pagan religions, but of course only bits and pieces of his Truth are received by them, and end up in their foggy teachings. Catholics should never be afraid of seeing elements of their formal teachings out there in the Pagan world, as God calls all of us to enter into the depths of his Person, even Pagans, even Atheists, even Agnostics. Nobody is off his radar, nobody is out of his sight. Sadly, we will only see all this with clarity upon our deathbeds, when the soul separates from the body, and for many that will be too late.

      • JuliePurple

        Wow, I am in awe of your powers of rationalization And “even” other beliefs? Just a bit patronizing, don’t you think?

      • gooder1

        Hi Julie,
        Truth is never patronizing, Truth is simply truth. Each of us will experience Truth mere moments after our human lives come to an end; at that time each of us will see Truth in all its completeness. Even Catholic Church only teaches the fundamentals of Truth; complete revelation of Truth will be unfolded only in eternity. So whether we only have bits and pieces of the truth, like the Pagan religions, or the full revelation, which was imparted by Christ, and taught by the Church, we still have a long way to go. The main thing in this life on earth, is pursuit of God in an honest, sincere way, being open to him when he imparts truth our way.

      • JuliePurple

        You are correct: truth is not patronizing. It is, however, not the right word to use here. A better word in this context might be “revelation” or “opinion”.

        Look, Gooder, I like you. I think you’re a decent person who knows how to debate in a civil manner, and I really appreciate that. But I have to say that I’m embarrassed for you. You persist in putting forth inaccurate statements, and that’s sad, because you’re smarter than that. You *know* that none of this is provable: it is not supported by indisputable evidence. If there were actual proof, there wouldn’t be so many religions in the world, each claiming to have the “true” path. (Then again, considering the human capacity for delusion there might be :-) Look at it this way. Your belief system considers faith to be a really fine thing. And isn’t faith supposed to be all the more precious when evidence is lacking? So, considering that your claims are not provable, you still hold to them because you have faith. So according to your system, you are a really, really good guy. There’s nothing wrong with that! It’s just that once you go outside your own system, credibility demands genuine proof. So why not try a different tack? Instead of insisting that your claims are provable, why not debate ethics or something?

      • Jeffery Surratt

        We have all been lied to about the true nature of God by Satan. Matthew 10:24 Don’t be afraid of those who want to kill your body, they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Not punish you in a fire for eternity, so that you feel pain everyday forever. Jesus talked about a condition of nonexistence. I believe Jesus died to forgive all who choose God’s way and many will make that choice in God’s time, who did not have a chance in this corrupt world to get even pieces of truth.

      • gooder1

        Jeffery,

        You are likely correct in your statement that some will achieve salvation in “God’s time.” There is an interesting scientific study that shows even after death has occurred, the brain continues to exhibit a wide variety of activity, some good, some not so good. Just Google,

        AWARE—AWAreness during REsuscitation—A prospective study

        It would seem that God continues to pursue the soul even after death.

      • Jeffery Surratt

        Just as incredible as everything forming out of nothing over billions of years Look up the law of Biogenesis. Life comes from life not nothing. Where did the life force on Earth come from?

      • Jeffery Surratt

        And plenty of people have faith in the theory of evolution. With no real proof.

      • JuliePurple

        Oh, Jeffery honey, stop being silly.

      • Jeffery Surratt

        I will if you will. Look at my post above on the definition of theory. Let me know where the proof is.

      • JuliePurple

        Jeffery, look up the word “theory” as it is used in science. You’ll find that it is rather different than the common usage. There is also a “theory of gravity”; so tell me why you don’t float away then, eh?

      • Jeffery Surratt

        How come you just try to pettyfog the issue? You still have not given me any proof that evolution is real. I stand by my point on any theory, until it is proven. Evolution has not been proven. Gravity has.

      • JuliePurple

        Jeffery, go ahead and do that: stand by your point. Good luck with that. It’s you against the overwhelming majority of the scientific community, which accepts evolution as the dominant theory of biological diversity. So why don’t you see if you can give me proof that evolution is *not* real?

        As for pettyfogging, you yourself brought up the issue, so it seems the charge is against yourself, hm?

      • Jeffery Surratt

        Still no proof!

      • JuliePurple

        Jeffery, the proof is in the scientific journals. Go look it up.
        I’m still waiting for 1) an acknowledgement that you are the one who deserves the “pettyfogger” title, and 2) proof from you for whatever system you think accounts for biological diversity.
        Failing those, I think it best to end this dialogue. Because your repeatedly request proof *which is already available to you*, and that is just silly.

      • Jeffery Surratt

        I don’t have time to read the evolutionist propaganda. Like I said from the start it is just a theory, but you have bought into the propaganda like a good idiot. No one has shown me where any animal has changed since the creator God made them. Your just silly in your belief in evolution with no real proof. Again just some theory, read the dictionary.

      • JuliePurple

        I guess you aren’t, for example, aware of how the horse evolved from eohippus? Check it out in Wikipedia; it’s easy. It surprises me that you haven’t been introduced to the concept of evolution in school.
        Earlier I posted a dictionary definition of the word theory as used in science, but the moderators deleted it; I suppose it was too long. I’ll just give a brief part of it: “In technical or scientific use, Theory, principle, and law represent established, evidence-based explanations accounting for currently known facts or phenomena or for historically verified experience.”
        It is incredibly easy to research, if you want to learn facts about it. Goodbye, Jeffery; I wish you well.

      • Jeffery Surratt

        Just a theory-you find a skeleton, you do not know what it is. It is the size of a dog, maybe it is a horse. A horse is a horse of course of course. Just because you call it a horse does not mean it is a horse, or that it evolved into a horse. Still not proof. Where did the first organisms come from? Life from non-living materials has never been observed. They had to be created in a lab (The Earth) by a superior being.

      • JuliePurple

        Jeffery, this is my last attempt to help you understand, because you don’t seem to be interested in learning.
        You’ve heard of DNA?

      • Jeffery Surratt

        How come you never respond to my complete post. How did life start on this planet? You look up Biosynthesis. You can not get living things from non living material. I asked you for proof and you have given me a horse that has always been a horse. Horse from horse just like GOD made the reproductive system to work. Man from man, dog from dog, each kind makes each kind. Simple enough. I did some more reading on the Eohippus-just a extinct horse. Nice try not proof of anything.

      • Tom

        Julie
        Thank-you so much! You just showed my point in saying it take more faith to be an evolutionists than a creationist.
        Mark Twain was right and he just tossed his own bommerang.

      • JuliePurple

        Hi, Tom.
        Actually, the word “evolutionist” is misleading. It implies an unshakable belief in evolution. Most of us who are in agreement with the arguments for evolution are in agreement simply because those arguments make the most sense of all the ones presented so far. It’s a fine point, I agree, but important, because it implies that we believe tangible evidence and logic are essential in determining truth: if new reliable evidence were to surface, I daresay that a new explanation would be in the works. That’s the thing about science: people who like science are willing to learn and to say, if evidence warrants it, that we now know better than we did before. We don’t suppose we already know everything. The thing about evolution is that there *is* evidence to support it. This is in contrast to the creationist myths, which are the product of the imaginations.
        What sort of background do you have in science, may I ask?
        Please don’t tell me you think the world was created in 6 days, and all the rest? There are several logical anomalies in the story of creation as presented in the bible… not to mention that there are two separate stories which don’t agree in the particulars.

      • Tom

        Julie
        I’m not a scientist nor am I a theologian. I’m simply a Joe Six pack guy who is a christian and a deep thinker who takes seriously the words of Jesus and tries to use them in my life in loving people,, especially the underdogs. I haven’t really studied into the subject of evolution, because I have a sound faith that God exists as He is seen in nature. Yes, I believe in a literal 6 day creation with the 7th day He rested and sanctified it through all eternity. That is why I am a dedicated Seventh-day Adventist who practices a more than skin deep spirituality. If the world wasn’t created in 6 literal day with a 7th day rest, why is the weekly cycle 7 literal days?

      • JuliePurple

        Hi, Tom
        You asked about the origin of the 7 day week.
        Well, I only had a vague idea about it, so I looked it up. It seems that lunar cycle was the main influence originally, although the Han Dynasty Chinese used 5 and 10 day cycles.
        I’ve read some of your other comments, and you seem to be a really nice guy who cares about people. That’s awesome! And that’s the main thing, really. Your statement implies a lack of education in science, so it’s understandable why you’d come to some of the conclusions you have. There’s nothing wrong with that. Just try to remember that greater knowledge usually gives greater understanding. But I’ll say again that you seem to have a good heart, and that is at least equally important.

      • gtyr

        Blessed are those who don’t faith, but wait for proof.

        That’s the modern teaching which is contrary to Jesus’ ignorant teaching. That is the basis of science. Science has never failed because it relies on proof… no proof means a question mark.

        But has no use for the academic elites. Lower classes of society still follow these superstitions and will always remain beneath others.

      • gooder1

        gtyr:

        I am a scientist who finds the teachings of Jesus to be very reasonable. There are just as many scientists who find Christianity to be fair and sensible, as those who are atheists. In fact science is now beginning to see just how dynamic things really are, and without scientific explanation! The word “theory” is just that, neither fact, nor principle. For example, the Theory of Evolution is simply a theory based upon fragments of extant information that remain to our day. And to be clear, I should have said “theories of evolution,” because there are so many. Jesus gives us the recipe for eternal life, not scientific principle. But in all honesty, we might actually have scientific proof of Jesus’ resurrection if we ever get our hands on the Shroud of Turin again, so to understand it better. The earlier studies used the questionable areas of repair for the dating. So it would be nice to run new samples. But as for the image itself, well, it might just have been “burned” onto the cloth. If a person were to be resurrected, and changed from the natural order, to the super order, that body would experience an exothermic reaction. And that is likely how the image was seared onto the cloth. And … should I say, what will you do on the day your earthly life comes to an end, and you experience your soul continuing on, then finding yourself before Jesus in judgment? That is something to cringe at.

      • JuliePurple

        Gooder, as a scientist you should know better about the meaning of the word “theory” as used in science.

        About the shroud of Turin: “The official report of the dating process, written by the people who performed the sampling, states that the sample ‘came from a single site on the main body of the shroud away from any patches or charred areas.’” and
        “Professor H E Gove, of the Nuclear Structure Research Laboratory at the University of Rochester, New York, stated regarding the repair hypothesis that “Even modern so-called invisible weaving can readily be detected under a microscope, so this possibility seems unlikely. It seems very convincing that what was measured in the laboratories was genuine cloth from the shroud after it had been subjected to rigorous cleaning procedures. Probably no sample for carbon dating has ever been subjected to such scrupulously careful examination and treatment, nor perhaps ever will again.”

      • gooder1

        Actually, you’d be surprised at how inaccurate many of the sample testing methods really are in science. We will oftentimes have multiple samples sent out for testing at alternate labs, with very little reproducibility. I see it every day. What we try to do is pick one lab, and assume that at least the methodologies are consistent, which should lead us to more reliable results, but even then there are huge discrepancies. As for the Shroud, well, the pollens match, not only from First Century Palestine, but also they match its path of travel over the centuries. The weave matches First Century weave of the area, the cloth itself is consistent with First Century Palestine, and so on. As for the cloth dating, it was in a fire in the 16th century, when it was damaged, as well as having liquid silver burn the cloth, and depending upon where they took the samples, the test could have been corrupted due to the repair weave being woven into the original thread, as well as from the Ag contamination, as the repair is almost 500 years old, as well. The interesting thing is that the Infrared, and Raman Spectroscopy work done much later on some of the fibers still intact, actually place the Shroud between 300 BC, and 300 AD. So more work needs to be done.

      • JuliePurple

        What is your source of information?

      • gooder1

        Source of information on? If on the Raman Spectroscopy, just do a Google search on Raman Spectroscopy of Shroud of Turin. If on sample testing accuracy in general, then that would be first hand, as I see it every day. But as I said, it is time for work on the Shroud to resume, as there are too many conflicting results (which is not uncommon in scientific work).

      • JuliePurple

        I did look it up. The only sources I found that absolutely confirm 1st century origin are sources strongly skewed towards religion. When I looked at other sources, I found that the opinion is that results are inconclusive.
        But even if it were the actual shroud, so what? It certainly wouldn’t prove resurrection; it would only prove that a man with certain types of wounds was wrapped in the fabric. Proving miraculous resurrection is a far cry from that!

      • Jeffery Surratt

        Where has your science religion proven evolution? There is no proof, it is just a theory that you have faith to believe in. Theory- a proposed explanation whose status is conjecture and subject to experimentation, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact. Where is any evidence of evolution. Nothing has changed since the creation. Our knowledge has increased just as it says in the bible. Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. Boy,are we on the move more than ever. And wars and rumors of wars are in the news everyday.

      • Tom

        gtyr
        Wow! What condescention. So science has it all, huh?
        They have yet to come up with a credible proof how the marvelous human anatomy just evolved from some lower to higher being. Or how about the anatomy of a giraff, whose long neck and sudden movement from way up to way down should cause some serious physical repercussions, except that it has a unique circulatory system to compensate for the length of its neck. That just evovled, huh? Only someone who believes in a Creator can understand how that is made possible.

        So who really are the ones who need to have faith, a faith in an evolutionary process that leaks like a sieve..
        One thing you prove to me cowpoke, is that you are all hat and no cattle!

      • Tom

        Keep in mind that God is infinite and we humans are finite.
        we live in a world where you can measure things. but there is no way to measure infinity with a tape measure. To me Psalms 19 is the best proof that God exists.

    • brian

      Becca, I’m not sorry, but there are a ton of laws in the old testament that Christians do not follow. The dietary restrictions, we don’t kill people that curse their parents, or for cheating on their spouse, etc, etc.

    • gtyr

      God loves us all, but has never donated a dime. That’s a lot of love. And worst he’s ripping people off through his churches by having everybody donate for Jesus, that I get.

      A couple of fools came up with the 3 person in 1 God dogma almost 2000 yrs ago. Billions now are following those illiterate forefathers who couldn’t even understand how to add and subtract. That’s right, people in those days math skills were equivalent to first year kid in school.

      Makes us wonder if anything good can come up from people that dumb… who thought the earth had corners etc… who believe that women can get pregnant by just praying. Sick thinking!

      • Tom

        I’m sorry you have this picture of God, a person you probably don’t even believe exists. but i can understand and i won’t argue with you. But please at least consider this, God did a whole lot more than donate a dime. Jesus, his son, came to this earth, lived among people and tried to show his followers how to live. thousands of oppressed and suffering people gathered around him, encouraged and uplifted by Him showing genuine love and acceptance. The religious leaders of the day couldn’t stand it his influence that was breaking them away from their godless control.
        In the end these “religious” people murdered him by nailing him to a cross. If you knew the entire story of Jesus , you would understand that he died for everyone, including those who don’t even believe he ever existed.

    • John Carson

      Malachi 3:6 – For I am the Lord, I change not.

      Jonah 3:10 – So God changed his mind and did not do what he planned.

  • Logan

    So.. you’re all homophobes appealing to a mythological tyrant. Nice.

    • Berty Popperdopper

      Why do you liberals think that branding someone as a “homophobe” or “racist” is the ultimate winning argument ?

      • JuliePurple

        Betty, just pointing out something here: Logan didn’t say it was an ultimate winning argument. He was just making an observation.

      • Berty Popperdopper

        You liberals should stick to what you are best at…destroying society and making pre schoolers gay.

      • JuliePurple

        Oh, Berty, you poor man. Your life must be really difficult, since it’s obvious you ignore facts. I feel sorry for you. You must have had a really rough upbringing. It shows. How sad.
        But yes, I’m liberal; thank you for noticing!

        “Destroying society”, “making pre-schoolers gay”… how silly! Really, Berty, do some fact checking on *reputable* sites, eh?

      • Berty Popperdopper

        Of course you are liberal this is a liberal scam rag run by jewish haters of christ. Why come to this poison pen web site to find spiritual information you will only find spiritual destruction at busted halo dot com. Why not broken buddah or asswiped allah?…..Busted halo where the jews answer your spiritual questions about christianity.

      • Tom

        Julie
        Say this game of ping pong can “evolve” into a never ending side show. My wife tells me that “a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.” Can we agree on that point. Interesting. You are a liberal and I’m a conservative, but not the kind you think of. I don’t drink the coolaid of the tea party. I hear what you are saying about reputable sites.
        I think you and i could actually sit down and have a nice chat over a piece of pie, if we avoided talking about evolution vs. creation. Have a nice day. I have a ministry i need to spend some time on helping people. :)

      • JuliePurple

        Hi, Tom.

        Cute saying from your wife! Although I’d add that while he might retain his original opinion, he might be more careful where he speaks of it. ;-)

        I agree: we could probably have a pleasant conversation about many things. I really appreciate that you know how to have a dialogue in a civilized manner. Good luck with your ministry.

      • Logan

        I guess if the shoe fits, wear it.

      • Berty Popperdopper

        I am a proud racist and i am also anti gay, and if you do not like that to bad.

      • JuliePurple

        Berty, prejudice and bigotry are cause for shame. No, I don’t like people having totally wrong ideas that are to the detriment of innocent people. Yes, it is too bad that you feel that way.

      • Chip

        Ironically, being a “proud racist” and “anti gay” you are on a site for spiritual seekers. The existential dilemma you are facing in your life astounds me. Do you also visit hip-hop sites and frequent gay bars in your area?

      • Berty Popperdopper

        Oh boo hoo , you do not like what I have to say? Better send the compliance police to have me sodomized by mentally deranged liberal school teachers.

      • Chip

        If you want to be sodomized by deranged teachers that is your fantasy. Go for it. You seem like someone who would probably enjoy it and learn something from it.

      • Berty Popperdopper

        Also , this jewish run site reeks of luciferian thought perversion.
        Broken halo…..Honestly how obvious could it be.

      • Chip

        The only luciferian perversion I have seen on this site is you.

  • Christian Dehlinger

    Jesus is not silent on
    the subject at all! First we must say the either homosexual or
    hertersexual we are talking about sex! Matthew 19, Jesus, being tested by
    the Pharisees on divorce, gives full articulation to the subject. Read vs
    1-12 and tell me who, under what Jesus is given, is allowed to have sexual
    relations? –

    Sanford, No Christian would see the quran as a continuance of scripture but a
    contradiction. If a continuance, why are Muslims killing Christian’s today for their
    faith?

    • gooder1

      Yes Christian, you are correct. God established the new and everlasting covenant with the people of the world; there is no other. See Jeremiah 32:40. And you are correct that Jesus is not silent on homosexuality; he states very clearly what God’s plan for man is, and stated clearly in Matthew 19: he made them MALE and FEMALE, a man shall leave his MOTHER and FATHER, and be joined to his own wife. St. Paul approaches the subject from the negative perspective.

      • Christian Dehlinger

        gooder1, You cannot find fault with the clear words of our Lord, but
        being our Creator, how else would it be. I find interesting in Romans God gives them over to the sin they desire; is this why homosexuals take on traits of the opposite sex? I have homosexual clients and I truly care about them. I see HOMSX as one of the sins of fornication that resides outside the HETSX marriage bedroom but deepened by the rejection of how they were made-CD

      • Tom

        christian
        when you say clients, I presume you are a counselor of some kind. would you care to tell us what kind and elaborate a little on what you say to gooder. i’d be interested to see your take on this a little more. Please take whatever space you need :)

      • Chip

        Actually both of you are wrong. Matthew 19 has nothing to do with homosexuality and everything to do with divorce. You’re simply twisting Jesus’ words to fit your argument. He was simply answer a question about divorce, and since gay marriage was not a concept 2,000 years ago, he was not commenting on it. He was not asked about homosexuality or other behaviors in Matthew 19.

        To me, the destruction of marriage is not gay marriage, but divorce. And in a country with roughly half of marriages ending in divorce, and others with partners concealing cheating and still others in abusive heterosexual marriages, clearly this is far more destructive to the concept of marriage–yet everyone here is railing against gay marriage. Why don’t you listen to Jesus’ words and rail against divorce and re-marriage, which affects vastly more people than gay marriage ever will.

      • gooder1

        Chip, yes you are correct, Matthew 19 only gives a positive teaching on what marriage is: a union between a man and woman, who engage in natural intercourse, and generate children through that marriage. Gay marriage is not marriage at all; it is a relationship between two people who cannot produce children naturally. Obviously St. Paul, who spent much time in the Pagan world, gave the necessary response to address what he was seeing out there beyond the confines of Judaism. Romans 1:26-27

  • Sharon

    My personal belief on homosexuality is that no it isn’t totally conventional and no it isn’t normal or natural (to an extent) and it isn’t a part of God’s perfect world, but that doesn’t matter when you take into account one of the main ideas in the Bible. God and Jesus and The Holy Spirit has an undying love for all of His creations and that includes homosexuals. In the Bible it clearly states that whoever knows and loves and accepts God will enter his kingdom. There was no fine print explaining that this is true except for the homosexuals. John 3:16 says “For God so loves the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not not perish but have eternal life.”. Yes in the Bible it also says in 1 Corinthians 6:9 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,” but it makes it clear that although some morals of the Old Testament are the same, the consequences have changed and that the verse in John 3:16 has become true. When our right hand faults us we do not cut it off, so if our sexuality “faults” us we don’t just turn it off. Jesus did not come for the healthy but for the sick as those who are healthy do not need a doctor. It also says that love remembers nothing of fault so why should homosexuals be victims of hate and discriminated when we are meant to love each other? It says in the Bible that no sin is greater than the other in the way it will be punished. All those little white lies you told? Just as punishable as homosexuality. We sin everyday and we will for the rest of our lives, so don’t judge the sins that stand out and are unconventional just because you don’t want to admit you are just as guilty. Remember this is my personal belief and I’m not trying to force it upon anyone and yes I am a Christian and yes I think I might just be homosexual.

    • Tom

      Sharon
      Well at least you show some grace to gays, but the way you get there is preposterous. If you are indeed gay, accept yourself for who you are, quit hating yourself. and quit looking at gays as a bunch of morons.

  • Sanford Pass

    Jesus, peace be upon him, came to redeem the Children of Israel and to reinforce Monotheism in the One God Who created the heavens and the earth and all of us, and the Law of Moses. He did not specify each and every law in the Mosaic Law. Just because he did not specifically say anything about homosexuality does not mean he endorses it. If anything, his silence on the matter would default to the Law of Moses, which forbids it. The Qur’an, which is the last of three Books of Guidance (Torah, Gospel, Qur’an) sent down from the One God, reiterates God’s hatred for homosexuality which is voiced in the Torah. I am not homophopic, nor do I hate anyone for their beliefs or practices. But as a believer – a Muslim striving to walk the Straight Path of Islamic Monotheism, (not as seen on TV) – I am to speak up for the good and admonish the bad. I know this is not a popular stand in this messed up society. But this life is very short compared to where we are headed, and when we know we are going on a long journey, we prepare, right? So I advise you and I advise me to prepare. May the One God guide us all, and may we have the humility and the sincerity to follow it, no matter what anyone around us says about it.

  • Kay Oss

    In reply: So Intersex people are not loved because of your definition of parts. Fortunately being a human is more than just the sum of our parts. You would damn/dismiss people with birth defects. Or how about this old nut. “Marriage is only for procreation” so every woman or man who can no longer viably produce sperm/eggs/and or related hormones in order to procreate are no longer married. Sorry gramps and gran… And why are christians so literal about the old testament. The talmud and the old testament are NOT interchangeable. PS jesus didn’t believe in the old testament because he was a jew and read the talmud. ooops and the old testament didn’t exist until a ROMAN CEASAR wanted to simplify some stuff written AFTER the time of jesus and threw out this and that. Like the BOOK of RUTH tossed out for one reason it was written by a woman. Ooopsie. Or are you saying god went page 1 first sentence. He spoke to some prophets but where is the “prophet” that gave us genesis since it was “written about 5th-6th century” Not to mention the vast assortment of revisions. Mary Magdalene saw the risen jesus… oh crumb she’s one of those humans with those parts. Then it became a bunch (11) of unnamed apostles ooops then it became some added specific apostles and Mary is left. Please tell me that you know Mary the prostitute and Mary of (the town of) Magdalene and Mary the adulteress are 3 different people. Thanks pope gregory for making that oppsie dasie too. It must have something to do with our parts that make us disappear from the bible. If you are a true christian than you shouldn’t even be following the old testament. The reason jesus wasn’t considered the messiah to the JEWS is he didn’t follow their commandments. You do no that there are over 200 commandments beyond the 10. Which is why Jesus said I am the way. He even asked of his followers “you will follow MY commandments.” and goes on to summarize the main points which are 2. “Love thy lord” and “Love thy neighbor”. WOW jesus was about love forgiveness inclusion NOT exclusion. When he stopped the stoning of the adulteress. JESUS WAS REBELLING AGAINST THE RULES OF THE TALMUD (these same rules are included in the old testament). Because is something new he is the way. Don’t you think god in all his wisdom would have seen all this hate and gave you an ok on hating gay people. And why are “christians” so obsessed with sexuality and the use of those parts. Its either like a disease that needs to rubbed out (no pun intended) or a part of some distant mirage that never existed. There are plenty of other rules in the old testament “christians” don’t follow. So is religion now a buffet of practice “well stoning my children when they are disobedient” skip “if im widowed I have to marry my husbands male relatives” skip “gambling is also damned too” but lets protest gay marriage and not scratch off tickets – skip “it instructs us on how to care or not care for our slaves by how to beat our slaves – sk… oops that one was used to defend slavery. so…. skip later….And for those willing to just uncheck an entire branch of science called evolution than don’t use any modern medicine or medications that were developed using genetics. Geology so don’t use any earth based sciences like gasoline and materials to build your home. Be ever so vigilant that the mouths of men do not replace the words of god. Jesus also strongly speaks against witnessing oops missionaries. It also says Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image so stop with the crosses and the jesus fish. So NO JESUS DID NOT SAYING ANYTHING DAMNING about GAY PEOPLE (technically there isn’t a word for homosexual in aramaic in the old testament so maybe “effeminate” is the closest translation. But since we pick and choose out of the bible we can’t be that picky.

    • JuliePurple

      Kay, you GO, girl! Awesome!

    • Mike

      what is a ” So Intersex people” ????? is that a word made up to mean Homosexuals to sugar coat that word ?

      you seem to have put a lot of thought over time to try and speak your mind about this with the way you wrote it you being upset that you are a woman and no man seems pay you much mind in the things you say and you are perhaps upset that women over the years have been shunned and told to shut up we will not listen to you, (because of what happened in the Garden of Eden and Eve ) and how I gather that you are upset at a “God” that you see in your eyes as not a fair and open minded God … let not mans misunderstandings be yours too

      “The reason jesus wasn’t considered the messiah to the JEWS is he didn’t follow their commandments.”

      the reason some of the Jews of that time did not believe in Jesus was because they were of Satan for one. and they we so full of their own pride they did not want to follow God to begin with, that is them that changed God’s laws locking up the kingdom of Heaven so that they could no longer get into heaven let along Jewish converts.

      Jesus in what he did unlocked Heaven by abolishing the laws that the Jewish Priest of that time used to lock Heaven up with.

      that is why what you said that the reason Jesus wasn’t considered the messiah to SOME of the Jews because if them that you speak of did , then that means they would have to had to admit the truth then step down from there positions .. they would have lost there control and power they had over the Jewish people in them days.

      it is Pride that does that… have you not ever dealt with a control freak ? or understand the psychology and theology behind such persons?

      Jesus followed the Ten Commandments that God His Father gave man to obey, the rest where mans laws not GOd’s

      Catholics teach that if mans law we have today superseded God’s Laws then we do not have to obey them because that is man putting himself above God .. therefore, as we do not follow man but God hence that teaching

      • Monica Boothe

        wait…what?? when was the Book of Ruth “Tossed Out”?

      • Tom

        Yes indeed, Jesus followed the Ten commandments, all 10 of them, including the fourth one. He also expanded on them to say that he who lusts on a woman committs adultry in his heart. Any gays lusting after women? No? Well you are off the hook here. No not really, just messing with you.

        Jesus came not to destroy the law but fulfill it. He came to show that it was more than just a bunch of restrictions. The religious leaders of His day had burdened people down with multitude of added regulations to force obedience. They completly bastardized God’s holy Law. Jesus came to shed new light and show what it really meant to keep the law. That is why he said the 2 great commandments, Love God first, and second to love your neighbor, including gays, fulfilled the entire law and the prophets.

    • gooder1

      Kay,
      You need to relax. God is not out to strike people down to hell. Whenever anyone goes there, it is that person who throws him/herself there. When coming face to face with God, the soul sees how far it has drifted from God during its lifetime, it sees the vast difference between what its life had become versus the Truth that God calls each of us to live by. God agonizes over everyone who plunges into the eternal abyss. He wants to be merciful, but the soul is frozen in its eternal state once separated from the body. If it dies in the state of repentance, it will be saved, and ultimately get to heaven, if it dies in the state of reviling against God, it will be eternally lost.

      • John Carson

        Actually the doctrine of eternal punishment in hellfire is a fabrication created by the papacy as a way of holding power over the masses. It’s not biblical.

      • Tom

        John
        AMEN! what kind of a loving God would torment ANYONE forever. when your are dead, you are dead forever. A campfire doesn’t burn forever. That heap of ashes is cold the next morning. That piece of wood can’t burn forever, but the ashes prove forever that it is burned up.

      • gooder1

        Not biblical if there is no Bible: hell is a place of fire (Matt 5:22;18:9; James 3;6). The fire is unquenchable (Mk 9:43). Hell is a pit into which people are thrown (Matt 5;29; 18:9; Mk 9:45,47; Lk 12:5). Matthew 10:28 refers to God destroying both soul and body in hell. This does not mean snuffing out of existence, as Matt 25:46 Jesus speaks of both heaven and hell as eternal, opposites, both unending (eternal).

    • Tekkenfighter123

      Thank you Kay Oss. I’m not going to go into detail, but you helped me so much. I hope you keep making post. I wish I could articulate the way that you do.

    • phil

      1Co 6:9-10
      9– Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived:neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
      (KJVStrongs)

      • Truther Truthonhigh

        Phil, thanks for using the KJV as reference because it reminded me that the person selected to bring people The Word of God, King James, was an accepted Gay. Just another example of the inconsistencies of religion, all religions. For those that want to hang onto scripture and the wonders of a god, Google The Dark Passeges of The Bible or Google David’s Holocause and see the insane scriptures people just gloss over. You will be flabergasted when putting them in the context of God Never changes.

      • phil

        “King James I of England, who authorized the translation of the now famous King James Bible, was considered by many to be one of the greatest, if not the greatest, monarchs that England has ever seen.
        Through his wisdom and determination he united the warring tribes of Scotland into a unified nation, and then joined England and Scotland to form the foundation for what is now known as the British Empire.

        At a time when only the churches of England possessed the Bible in English, King James’ desire was that the common people should have the Bible in their native tongue. Thus, in 1603, King James called 54 of history’s most learned men together to accomplish this great task. At a time when the leaders of the world wished to keep their subjects in spiritual ignorance, King James offered his subjects the greatest gift that he could give them. Their own copy of the Word of God in English.

        James, who was fluent in Latin, Greek, and French, and schooled in Italian and Spanish even wrote a tract entitled “Counterblast to Tobacco”,which was written to help thwart the use of tobacco in England.

        Such a man was sure to have enemies. One such man, Anthony Weldon, had to be excluded from the court. Weldon swore vengeance. It was not until 1650, twenty-five years after the death of James that Weldon saw his chance. He wrote a paper calling James a homosexual. Obviously, James, being dead, was in no condition to defend himself.

        The report was largely ignored since there were still enough people alive who knew it wasn’t true. In fact, it lay dormant for years, until recently when it was picked up by Christians who hoped that vilifying King James, would tarnish the Bible that bears his name so that Christians would turn away from God’s book to a more “modern” translation.

        It seems though, that Weldon’s false account is being once again largely ignored by the majority of Christianity with the exception of those with an ulterior motive, such as its author had.
        It might also be mentioned here that the Roman Catholic Church was so desperate to keep the true Bible out of the hands of the English people that it attempted to kill King James and all of Parliament in 1605.

        In 1605 a Roman Catholic by the name of Guy Fawkes, under the direction of a Jesuit priest by the name of Henry Garnet, was found in the basement of Parliament with thirty-six barrels of gunpowder which he was to use to blow up King James and the entire Parliament. After killing the king, they planned on imprisoning his children, re-establishing England as a state loyal to the Pope and kill all who resisted. Needless to say, the perfect English Bible would have been one of the plot’s victims. Fawkes and Garnet and eight other conspirators were caught and hanged.
        It seems that those who work so hard to discredit the character of King James join an unholy lot.”

      • John Carson

        ri…..ght! a lot of conspiracy mixed with history there, but thanks for the lesson anyhow :-)

      • phil

        What you to have to say is immediately discredited by the idolatrous logo you choose to identify yourself by.

      • John Carson

        Ri……….ght!!! If you can’t think of anything to say just throw insults around :-)

      • phil

        Lazy reply is that really all you have?

      • phil

        If insults are all you gathered from my comments you are truly lost. Seek Christ with all your heart and you will find salvation.

      • John Carson

        You amuse me, phil, assuming things you do not even know to be fact about me, but be that as it may, I’m particularly pleased that I do to have to go there as you do. Enjoy your evening :-D

  • Mike

    for everyone especially @noni @gooder1:disqus @Jonathan @Tim J Petrizzi @Soonershark @William Lewis @LiberalGilt:disqus

    souls do have a gender, Mother Mary and every other woman that went
    to heaven all the women saints are just that women, not something with
    no gender and a face of a woman. the same goes for men.

    Sodom and Gomorrah

    the men wanted to have sex with the angles they too where men, that is what
    brought about the total destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. as that is a
    man wanting to have Sex with God himself, because they are messengers of
    God, therefore they too are god. it is oneness.

    too, this is where we get the term sodomy which is anal sex, which too is a sin. because it is an unnatural sexual act.

    when God made man and woman then he called it mankind. they were not made just man and called it mankind.

    man and woman were created then called mankind then God said to be fruitful and multiply.

    and woman and woman cannot do this.

    and a man and man cannot do this.

    therefore how can one say that Homosexuals are even born that way?

    for God never created a homosexual soul because he did not created mankind
    for a homosexual existence. if God did create mankind for a homosexual
    existence then he would have told us.

    commonsense and logic is what is needed to find the truth as well. not just justifications and made up stories that use no logic, that tell you that souls have no gender.

    @Soonershark stated in his post that souls have no gender using this passage to back it up, where he or she has no idea that it means because that person did not apply what it need to gain understanding of this passage, as well as no understating of God and everything to do with Him, therefore being ignorant of God that person made that statement, and is living in the dark as a result of it.

    Galatians 3:28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor
    free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

    that speaks of both specifically and symbolism within that statement.

    specifically,
    Jew nor Greek, that is belief systems. neither, means it is no more,
    but now one belief system that is Jesus’ Teachings.

    symbolically

    there is no male and female, because it is a spiritual marriage one obtains with Christ when they become one with him.

    for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

    when you speak of what you do not know or understand it will always get you
    into trouble because misconceptions and lies come out of it.

  • noni

    This post is for Ann Naffziger on her answer to the question about “What did Jesus have to say about homosexuality”.
    I am most particularly concerned about the following statement from your answer “The fact that he didn’t address this issue leaves us all to ponder what
    he might say were he here today” which leave a big question on Jesus’ divinity. When you say “what he (Jesus) might say were he here today” denotes an admission that he (Jesus) is not here today. If he is not here today, where is he? If he is God (according to the christian doctrine) then he must be very much present yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

    • LiberalGilt

      Are you getting messages?
      No?
      Must not be here

    • Monica Boothe

      Noni, I am trully curious, If you dont believe in God, Jesus, The Holy Spirit, The Trinity, Or Heaven and Hell…2 questions…Do you believe in Satan? and if not…What do you believe in?

      • noni

        Before answering your 2 questions, let me clarify one thing based on your statement “The fact that he didn’t address this issue leaves us all to ponder what
        he might say were he here today”. In your christian doctrine, Jesus is God. Isn’t it? If he (Jesus) is God, how can you say “were he here today”? If he (Jesus) is not HERE today, then he is not God. Now, to answer your question #1 (Do you believe in Satan?). Since you ask this question l assumed you believed in satan (l repeat the word satan for l cannot use the pronoun him or her because satan doesn’t exist. Satan exist only in your bible. A christian construct. Question #2 (What do you believe in?). In this question, you are suggesting that your God, Jesus, The Holy Spirit, The Trinity, Or Heaven and Hell are something to be believed in. Am I right? How can you ask such a question when you yourself don’t even believe that Jesus is HERE today. “WHAT HE MIGHT SAY WERE HE HERE TODAY”

    • John Carson

      interesting questions. ones I will ponder.

  • Mike

    the mear logic that boy boy and girl girl parts just do not fit together like they are suppose to should tell you that homosexuality is not normal. God is normal — you cannot mix a normal with an abnormal and expect to get good results.

    • noni

      You said homosexuality is not normal. Is it not that according to the christian doctrine, God created us all in his likeness, therefore perfect, normal human beings. Did your God erred in his creation that homosexuals cropped up?

      • LiberalGilt

        Us in his likeness doesnt mean gay. Why do you feel the need to twist the words to fit our agenda?

      • noni

        I’m sorry, you seemed to be barking on the wrong tree.

      • Mike

        no do read my general post in here. as well as Homosexuality came after God created mankind. therefore it was not created by God but came about in a different way other then God.

      • noni

        You said “therefore it was not created by God but came about in a different way other then God” My goodness, Mike, please read Genesis chapter 1. Before God created the Heavens and the Earth, there was nothing. Homosexuals are beings, therefore they are created. Since only God is the creator, how can you say “therefore it was not created by God”. Wake up man!

      • Dwardy

        Homosexuality is an abomination to God. It’s NEVER accepted. I was once a drag-queen but God has been transforming me to the person I was originally created for. God is holy and we must be holy, for without holiness, no one can see God.
        Man having sex with another man is bluntly immoral and perverse – I can imagine the evil things I have done with other men before and I could say that they are acts of evil! Good thing Jesus took me away from that mud!

      • bj

        Amen.. I give God glory for your willingness to share and honesty., and thank you as well

      • Mike

        my my you seem not have have a full understanding of the English language.

        but came about in a different way other then God

        sally came to my house by the main road and by a different way other then the main road johnny came to my house.

        see if you can wrap your heard around that and figure out by which way johnny came to my house.

      • noni

        Mike, before answering your query, l would like you to straighten up your sentences, kind of a little “polished one”. Fair enough?

      • Mike

        thank you for answering my question already by what you just said to me. as it shows me that you already understand what it is I am saying to you. and that it is more important to you in how I say it then what it is I am saying to you.

        just by “asking” me if you can rephrase it for me to show me how to straighten up my sentences for you so they just look more “polished” to you. before you will answer my questions to you.

        I have a better I idea as you already understand what it is I asked you. and you like to focus on the un important. re focus your whole life instead BY YOU straightening up your life for God so you will be more polished for Him so he don’t toss you into where all the dirty souls go and get turned into what they really look like to Him in the end.

      • noni

        Do you still remember the rules of “argumentation & debate” in your philosophy subject in college? Evading a question is a violation of the rules. My suggestion is to straighten up your sentence so that you will be understood but instead you get back to me, telling me to straighten up for God. Is this what you learned in school or in your church? It is sad.

      • Mike

        yes sad is the word for you, because you need to have it written just so or else you won’t answer the question as I see you did understand it, as well as my rebuttal to you for nit picking, as if you are suffering from Obsessive Compulsive personality disorder , then you again take it back to mans rules you need to play by and not God’s to play your little mind games you play in here.

        P.S. by your own rules you play by.
        Evading a question is a violation of the rules.

        you evaded my question with your ‘hey let you show me how to rephrase that sentence to make it look snappy sharp’ to impress yourself and others’ and then you can understand what you told be better. line of blah blah blah

        because that is all you were doing.

        you broke your own rules you are now telling me I have to play by. mans rules and not Gods ….

        what does that make you?

      • noni

        Let us not talk about God’s laws and ways for a moment. Let’s talk about rules of argumentation & debate. Let’s be honest, have you taken up argumentation & debate in college? If yes, then you know the rules. If not, then forgive me for asking. Thank you.

      • Mike

        if all you want to do is lie to me as you evaded my question first when you knew what I meant — for one thing, and for another — as it seems all you want to do is come in here and “debate” and argue against God all the time — all this is doing for you is nothing — it just feeds your false since of pride that you won an argument — but you lost your soul — that will be the end point of the games you play if you do not change your ways –

      • noni

        How do you know that l knew what you meant? Can you read my mind? That’s why l asked you to straighten your sentence so l can understand what your are saying and can appropriately answer your question. That’s just a simple English problem and you complicate it. Here’s a piece of advice: When you post, take your time. Make sure the reader will understand what your are talking about before you post.

      • JuliePurple

        Noni, I SO wish that everybody would follow what you suggested here! Clarity! Yea!

      • bj

        Mike if I were you, I would just leave it alone. The word says to not debate over the scriptures.. It is what it is. And it also says there are some that will just refuse to believe, regardless of what you , I , anyone say.. Just pray God deals with his/her heart and take your rest bro. The rest is between them and God.

      • Mike

        OK, lets look at it like this then. in Gen. God created Adam then put him in the Garden of Eden. then out of his rib he formed a woman. were either one of them homosexual? NO.

        we know this because God told them to multiply. a woman and woman cannot create a baby between the two of them.

        a man and man and man cannot create a baby between the two of them.

        this way of life is a direct contradiction to God and what he told the man and woman to do.

        Therefore, homosexual behavior came after God created man and woman. and is a direct contradiction to God.

        “therefore it (homosexuality) was not created by God but came about (happened) in a different way other then God” (doing).

        There are only two left to pick from then, as God is eliminated it that equation. This is called the process of elimination.

        you now have man and Satan and the fallen Angles that do not do what God wants them to do left to pick from.

        these two “Creations” Love to contradict God a lot!!!!!!!

        keeping in mind man has freewill so even man (or woman) can pick to do Satan’s will if they want to, just by not doing God’s will. if they pick Satan’s will — which in itself is a contradiction to God because they are no longer doing what God created them for, due to freewill. therefore you or anyone that is not doing God’s will is a contradiction to God.

        because you are now in and by what you or that person is not doing.

        do you have an understanding of the word contradiction and how it is applied?

        definition : a combination of statements, ideas, or features of a situation that are opposed to one another.

        if you are not doing what God intended mankind to do, then you are now opposed to God. therefore you are a contradiction to God in yourself, just by being alive.

        but God does not kill you over it. NO he lets you use your freewill to either kill yourself or get with God’s program and save yourself through Jesus, by doing what Jesus did.

        obeying all of His commandments — and his ways. they are intertwined together like your souls is to your flesh.

        that maybe hard for you to understand because you are so opposed to God right now.

      • Mike

        God never created a homosexual you have to have a masters degree in psychology to even try to understand it therefore I am not going to try and explain it to you

        but GOD set laws against it even before Jesus showed up

        Leviticus 18

        22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable. 23 “‘Do
        not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A
        woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations
        with it; that is a perversion.

      • noni

        Hey Mike, you said “even before Jesus showed up”, why? Did Jesus come from somewhere? I thought you catholics believed that Jesus and God are the same, so, why say “even before Jesus showed up”? How soon you forgot when Jesus said “before Abraham was l am”.

      • Mike

        are you really looking for understanding of your creator or do just enjoy coming in here with alternative motivations?

        pick one then maybe I’ll try to educate you

      • noni

        I’m just curious Mike. You catholics don’t seem to understand what you believe. In your trinity doctrine, there is only one God, father, son, and holy ghost. It is omnescient. When you said “Jesus showed up” meaning he was not here before. Since God is omniscient and Jesus is God (in your trinity) he must be omniscient too. Reading your line of argument makes one wonder what kind of catholic are you.

      • gooder1

        The Trinity is one God, with three divine Persons existing within the Godhead. Jesus is the Word (John 1:1-3, John 1:14). When the Word became flesh, is when Jesus, the Son, took on a human nature. Jesus, however, would in a sense suppress his divinity so to endure the struggles of man. In other words, how would his sacrifice be a true sacrifice, had he not actually suffered it. How could he experience hunger, unless he suffered it. Whenever Jesus spoke by means of his divinity, he would receive it through prayer, to show us how prayer works. Jesus could certainly tap into his divinity at any time, but chose instead to show us true discipleship, based on reliance upon God. He performed miracles, but would likely pray before to show us how prayers are answered. So Jesus could have done anything, but he instead showed us how life aught to be lived, and that we are all called to live life as he did. He dealt with issues as they presented themselves. And when asked questions, he would allude to the Old Testament showing how they had many of their answers already, but chose instead to ignore them. As for homosexuality, well there was probably not a whole lot of that within the Jewish groups, as they followed the Law, which forbade it. But we see later on in the New Testament that Paul certainly had his hands full with it in the Gentile Nations, and had to directly address it.

      • noni

        Let’s not talk about trinity because nobody can understand the trinity. Even those who invented it can’t even explain it. If you pretend that you know it, then there is something wrong with you.

      • gooder1

        noni:

        Even though the Trinity of God has a mystery to it, we can still talk about the understandable reality of God as set forth in Sacred Scripture:

        Jesus said to the Jews: “before Abraham came to be, I AM” (Jn 8:58-59). The angels were created (Col
        1:16, Rom 8:38-38), but Jesus was begotten (Heb 1:5), and in the perfect image of the Father (Heb 1:3), that makes Him God as well:

        Notice how both Jesus and the Holy Spirit “proceed” from the Father (Jn 8:42 & Jn15:26). But the Holy Spirit is not merely the Spirit of the Father (Matt 10:20), He also proceeds from, and is, the Spirit of the Son (Gal 4:6, Acts 16:7, Rom 8:9, Phil 1:19). The Holy Spirit is also a Person (Paraclete = Helper, Representative, Advocate), with personal attributes being ascribed to Him: teaching truth (Jn 14:16), giving testimony for Christ (Jn 15:16), having the knowledge of the mysteries (1Cor 2:10), forecasting future events (Jn 16:13, Acts 21:11), and installing bishops (Act 20:28).

        See how all three Persons are responsible for the supernatural work of forgiving sins (Mat 9:2, Luke 7:48, 23:34, and John 20: 22).

        As for the hierarchy of God, well, Jesus receives from the Father: “I declare to the world what I have heard from him [the Father].” (John 8:26). Then the Spirit receives from Jesus (John 16:15).

        More Scripture on this hierarchy of God: John 15:26, “But when the Advocate has arrived, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, he will offer testimony about me.”

        The Trinity is by all means a mystery, but we still need to do our best to unravel what has been revealed: For example, Eph 4:4-6 has “one Spirit…one Lord…one God”. These words give us a glimpse into the Trinity, but just enough to have us craving for more.

        This Christmas might be fun to study the Incarnation a little bit closer, to understand what we are actually celebrating. The New Testament witnesses that all three Persons were involved in the Incarnation–the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35); the All Highest, and the Son of the All Highest (Luke 1:32). To further this thought see where each Person is considered fully responsible for the act of the Incarnation: The Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35), the Son (Phil 2:7), and the Father (Heb 10:5)–all co-participants–all are God. See how John uses God to refer to Jesus as “the only begotten God” (Jn 1:18).

        There is much here, but the Trinity is a logical conclusion; it tells us that God is, in a sense, a Divine Family. Some of this has been gleaned from the writings of Ludwig Ott.

      • noni

        You keep repeating the passages in the bible to prove your point. How can you prove your point when the reference or evidence you used is unreliable, untrue, and full of lies. In my previous reply to you, l cited to you a few bibles passages like John 7:8-10 and the genealogies of Jesus by Matthew and Luke but you took notice only on the genealogies but not on John. Why? because, you cannot stand the lies committed either by Jesus or by John. So, please stop reciting the bible again. Make your own reasoning. Use your own mind. I know its difficult to detach yourself from the brainwashing you have undergone since your childhood. What a pity. Your are wasting your brain.

      • gooder1

        John 7:8-10

        8 Go to the feast yourselves; I am not going up to this feast, for my time has not yet fully come.” 9 So saying, he remained in Galilee. 10 But after his brothers had gone up to the feast, then he also went up, not publicly but in private.

        We spoke earlier of the textual variations of the Greek New Testament manuscripts. And John 7:8 has many variants: some include “yet,” others do not. The earliest Greek manuscript of John, P66, ~AD 200, includes “yet.” That sentence would read “…I am not going up to this feast yet, for my time has not yet fully come…”

        The manuscripts are not perfect. In fact, one should marvel at how much excellent work had been done by the scribes over the centuries. Imagine a Catholic monk copying scripture for 18 hours per day, often by candle light, getting tired and weary. If one mistake is made, then every manuscript copied from his manuscript would contain the same error. And on it went down through the centuries. The monks in their faithfulness were still only human.

        If you could do better, then fine, but my feeling is you would fare no better. You should not be so critical of less than perfect work done in good faith; we must tip our hats to the valiant efforts made by the monks and scribes. Instead of criticizing and accusing, why not try being humble and meek; that would be my recommendation.

        As for the Trinity, well of course the arguments for it will come from Scripture. The existence of God, though, can certainly be concluded in just looking at nature itself, by asking questions such as, where did life come from to begin with? And not just human, or animal, but plant life, as well. We’ve explored other planets in our solar system, and they are just dry dust bowls. Why is our planet so fertile, why do we have the breath of life? Why can we not revive a dead body that has been on the slab for a day or so? Why not? It has all the proper matter. It has all the things in place, but we cannot make it live. Why do we get old? Why can’t man in all his wisdom stop aging? Or why does our planet seem indestructible? We do all we can to destroy it, but it just adapts, morphs, changes as needed to continue. Why do our bodies rot once life leaves them, and go back to fertile matter on this earth from which crops will flourish? What a terrific system we must all say! Why do our bodies have a brain that thinks. All the animals have brains, but they follow instinct, the natural order of things. A sheep’s brain has a huge smell center. Interesting. Why does a calf know to stand up the minute it is born, and go for its mother’s nipples for milk? Why? Why? Why? In our day, people are so distracted with games and gadgets, they have lost the quiet time needed to think about things, and marvel at God’s creation.

      • noni

        So you concede that errors exist in the bible and these errors are due to human frailness of the monks and scribes in copying the scripture. Is not the bible a handiwork of your God? Your church’s doctrine teaches that the bible is inerrant. Inspired word of God or the word of God. Have you not noticed that after the readings of scriptures during celebration of a catholic mass, it is always followed by the phrase “the word of the lord”. So the scripture is really the word of God, otherwise it will not be incorporated in the mass. If there are errors in the bible, why didn’t the church authorities correct them? Do you know why? They won’t do that because if they do, there will be no bible left.

        I don’t it is an error. It is deliberate. What about interpolation in the bible. To insert or add something into the text cannot be called an error of the weary and tired monks and scribes. Take the case of Mark’s gospel, verses 9-20 of chapter 16. It is pure and simple addition. The oldest known Greek manuscript of the NT has only 8 verses in chapter 16 of Mark’s gospel.

        I am neither criticizing nor accusing the scribes. I am just trying to let you know that the bible is an unreliable proof of your God’s existence. Read the entire bible from cover to cover and you will find for yourself (not from the priest) how horrible is its story and despite that, the catholics call it a word of God.

        About the trinity. You admit it is a mystery, why then insist in promoting it, teaching it especially to the little children, poisoning their young minds with lies since you yourself don’t even have a clue on what it is all about. Yeah you are right when you say that God can be better understood thru nature. This is where l can find in you something true and real you. God’s story cannot be written in a book, for who can write it right. Not Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Moses, etc. No one.

        Jesus didn’t write a book, not even a single word about God because he knew he cannot do it but despite that the catholics made him God.

      • gooder1

        noni:
        Jesus is the Word of God (John 1); he didn’t have to write it. In fact we only have one mention in the NT where Jesus actually wrote (John 8:1-11), and it was probably the sins of each of the accusers of the woman caught in adultery. Anyway, the Church is clear that only the original writings are the inspired Word of God. The copies we have now are not inspired, but they are considered to be a faithful transmission of the original Word, as well as we can expect down from through the ages. As far as believing in God, and the Trinity. Well, God has given each of us a brain to think with, so I try to apply some common sense to it all. Theists will proclaim belief in God, but feel that man cannot know him beyond that. I tend to disagree. We are clearly better than the animals, so why not use the gift? Does a dog wake up in the morning and say to itself, “wow, what a nice day; I think I will go out and do something constructive today, so let me go take a quick shower, and get to it. Or does a rooster wake up and say man this hen house stinks, let me clean it up. No, of course not. The way I see it, God created all that we know; I can’t imagine there’s a better explanation. He probably said let there be light, and then there was a big bang, a loud blast, an intense explosion, emanating extreme radiation, and from which, matter was hurled outward, slowly unfolding over the course of millennia a universe, whose beauty was great to behold. During the course of this act, planets slowly came together, attaching themselves through gravity to the nearest burning ball of hydrogen still afire from the big bang. With each star forming a separate solar system and finding itself grouped into galaxies, all interacting with the universe. And it makes sense that at some point, God would ultimately choose one or more of the planets to initiate life, life that was multi-fold, a system designed to last, adapt, change as needed to hold things in the balance. It stands to reason that He infused this matter with DNA, a replicating mechanism by which all life now had the ability, or the power to transmit its own life, but not just man, all life. Vegetation uses seeds and other means to keep itself in existence, animals use sperm & egg, or other, to keep life going beyond its own limit. In a sense we all have the power of God, to create and transmit life. That is a wild thought. But of course all things have regulation. The animals do not stray too far from their natural programming, they follow nature, or the natural law. Man is the only one who has in a sense limited instinct, but has the gift of reason to discover things and go beyond the instincts given to the animals. And … we should ask the question: why would God care to do such a thing if he did not have a divine purpose for man? Otherwise wouldn’t man just be like the monkeys? Just living for the day, living in the wild, swinging from trees, and looking for the next female to impregnate as its nature has determined? Wouldn’t that be man’s purpose if God thought to make life follow his natural law? Of course it would, unless of course, God had greater things in mind for man. What if God gave man the ability to think and reason so that he could communicate with the Author of the Universe? And if that is the case, wouldn’t God try to reach out to man? At least giving man enough proof for him to use his sense of reason to pursue the All Mighty, for him to search for the One who is responsible for it all? Well I say yes; to me that is the only thing which makes sense. But of course when God gave man a mind to think, he also knew that man could choose evil, as well. And that is the risk of creating such a being. Man can either do good for himself and his society, or man could become a monster. So God gives us that choice, and that is the creature known as man. And it seems that once man could think, he quickly departed from the ways of nature, and entered into the life of sin. So God challenges us, but He loves man, and still believes that man can and will use his brain to pursue his Author. And to me, the entering into the world of the person Jesus Christ was God’s cryptic way of revealing to us his very nature. Some rejected Jesus; others followed. But it is interesting that in Matthew 16 Jesus promised a church that would last until the end of time, and hey, all other entities have long since perished, but the Catholic Church remains to this day. So I have no reason to dismiss the Church or its teachings. To me that Promise made by Jesus is proof enough that he had the Power to keep that promise. So to me the Church makes sense. And back to the animal versus man thought, well, it would seem that even though man has been given a mind to think, in some cases, the animals do a better job following the will of God, than the man of reason.

      • bj

        I don’t know what happen to you, but you shouldn’t blame God. I have an strong sense you’ve once cried out to God, and believed it to be to no avail (help), therefore becoming angry with him. But I do believe, you still know deep down, i n the secret places, that God is exactly who he says he is.. And that somehow, by being angry he will cave in and do your will in your life alone., but that’s not how it works. Until we surrender to his will, and his alone, we can never be satisfied. Until we believe by faith, we can never satisfy him . Believe me or not, I know. I tried every trick to make God prove himself, to make him move on my time, and to even try and convince myself that, he isn’t God. But guess what, he still showed me that I was nothing, and he alone is God the Father. And once I accepted it, he began to manifest himself and make an Change in my life. Even now, as an believer, it isn’t always peaches and cream, but as sure as he says he will, he always turns every bad situation into good for me who loves him. He’s been more than great, awesome to me in my life. I can’t find one complaint. Even the things I want to do, such as sexual desires that he commands us not to, doesn’t compare to the greatest within him.. And I’ve learned to make peace with the fact that he has my best interest at hand, and if he asks me not to do an thing, its because down the road and up the corner, he see’s the destruction it will cause.

      • noni

        You wrote “Even the things I want to do, such as sexual desires that he commands us not to”. Are you sure God commands us not to? Why did he allow the daughters of Lot to have sex with their father?

      • JuliePurple

        The biblical concept of deity doesn’t seem to have much respect for women. I know a lot of people will talk about Mary, mother of Jesus, but they had to try and make her into something beyond what real women are.

      • Mike

        How can you prove your point when the reference or evidence you used is
        unreliable, untrue, and full of lies. In my previous reply to you,

        if you used that line of thought for everything that one can learn and discover then you’d be doing what you are doing with your own salvation to everything in your life — getting no where

      • JuliePurple

        Sorry to butt in here, Noni, but I had to say that I’ve had the same problem again and again. People use unreliable data to back up their claims. It’s very frustrating! But I have to say this, too: Gooder at least debates in a civilized manner, avoids insults and invective. That, to my way of looking at it, is a huge plus!

      • bj

        God (The Father), who sent his Word , born as a human man named Jesus ( the Son), who thru his death gave us an opportunity to be forgiven, freed and healed from our sin, and to be endowed with his Spirit (Holy Spirit), who leads us into all truth, and keeps us sealed unto the day of redemption.. And PS.. I’m not Catholic, with no harm given.. I just know Jesus to be my Savior.. The realest entity I know

      • JuliePurple

        It sorta seems to me that maybe the trinity is like a person. A person has a physical body, emotions, and character (or basic nature, or soul, or life energy, or whatever you want to call it). It’s not a perfect analogy, but I think it’s that sort of thing. So it looks like they’re trying to make something pretty simple into a Big Deal mystery. Not saying whether or not there is any truth at all to the idea of a god-jesus-holy ghost trinity, now; just talking about the concept. It seems to me that when they talk about Big Deal mysteries, it’s either because they just haven’t figured out a good way to explain it, or else it’s something they either really don’t know, or just made up.

      • noni

        Hi Julie, don’t bother. They are just a bunch of apologist, trying hard to please their master in the Vatican, to justify their existence. Period.

      • JuliePurple

        Hi, Noni
        Well, you may be right, but still I like to try to figure things out, regardless of what other people think. As for the guy in the Vatican, at least the current one isn’t as bad as the one before! That one (Ratzinger) was a real piece of work.
        Be that as it may, it’s still interesting to try to see things in a different way, especially when it’s making things simpler. (Well, *I* thought it was simpler! :-D)

      • Mike

        reading everything you write I know what kind of person you are and where you will end up after you die if you do not change your ways — nit picking everything that matters not what you really believe about it. Because God nor Jesus never spoke of it. Two separate People one God, then you have the HOLY SPIRIT so now it is three people One God —

        do you think God is going to give you a pop quiz after you die and if you do not answer how this Holy Trinity thing really works — well guess what you failed the test no you get to go to Hell because of it?

        Jesus showed up, came out of a womb of a woman, was born into this world, how ever one puts it, the main point is Jesus did it is the fulfillment of the LAW, then he told you what you needed to do, and he showed you how to be as well, everything that one needs to know so that they too can do it too, so that that person that does it too can go to Heaven.

        if you or me or anyone in this whole world that has heard of Jesus does not do as Jesus told us to do then it is to hell with you and everyone else, that does not do the aforementioned.

      • noni

        Do you really believe in HELL? Did anyone been there and came back telling you its true? Who told you about this crap? The priest, the bishop, the pope? Come on Mike, get real.

      • Mike

        you are an atheist what are you even doing in here trying to learn about Christianity when all you are is CLOSED MINDED and argumentative — and you cannot even present a good argument. this is all childish lame arguments. and pretending you do not have a good understanding of the English language — I have no idea how old you are but it is too bad for you for you to be the way you are in how you use your mind against the one that gave it to you to use.

      • noni

        What is an atheist Mike? Can you define it for me so l can tell if your definition fits your description of me as an atheist. Thank you.

      • Mike

        see right there just by that question – playing stupid — and that is all you are doing is playing games in here you have this cycle of games you play in here just to argue and ever get anywhere with your life.

        you are like a dog chasing it’s tail. it’s never gets anywhere.

      • noni

        If you don’t want to answer my question, fine. Wait a minute, there is something wrong with the last line of your reply which says “it’s never gets anywhere”. I will not tell you what’s wrong with it. I want you to figure it out yourself. The word “stupid” is not nice. Be careful, it might come back to you.

      • John Carson

        as I said earlier, eternal torture in hell was an invention of the papacy during the dark ages they brought about by their greed for ultimate (and corrupt) power over the masses.

      • noni

        Hey Mike, when you wrote ” I will not share with you the answer to that mystery — you are not worthy of it” , I want you to shake your head first to make sure you are not dreaming. Mystery is something that baffles understanding and cannot be explained and you said you have the answer to that mystery. Get real. Be honest. If you are a catholic as you claimed you are, be true to your faith if you have one. If you don’t, please don’t pretend.

      • bj

        What I believe he means is when the word which is the Spirit of God and the very words God speak, was borned as Jesus in the flesh.. The Jesus has always been , and always will be.

      • Mike

        basic concepts was never your forte in high school was it ?

      • HanTzu

        Spelling was never yours, was it? Re: “mear”

      • bj

        Jesus was the word, and from the beginning the word was with God, and the word is God.. The word came to save us all , the world just refuses to believe and deny him .. The fact that a lot of evil men and sinners are still walking around with breath in their bodies shows the grace of GodGod ( and I know, should have been dead several times over).. Before Jesus came, you didn’t have the grace to mess up as now.., you wouldnt have but so little chances before destruction came. You don’t have to believe me, but you should really seek Jesus for yourself, and ask him to reveal himself to you.. I mean what can you lose by doing it, beside pride and a mind set on living in ways that pleases the flesh. Once we are face to face with God, its no ” oh I didn’t know, or give me another chance”.. Your another chance is today , right now.. And every man shall have the chance to be ministed to, before going to judgment or before Jesus returns. The word of God can either be an witness to you , or an witness against you on that day of judgment.. Your choice to decide. But either way, you have been told and the decision is no longer on God, but you alone.

      • noni

        You sound like an old schooled catholic. Your opening post is quoted from John’s gospel. Do you understand what you are quoting about?

      • bj

        I’m wondering the same.. Do you really know what you’re talking about. I’m here to debate the word. “It is, what it is” Whether you like it or not, it stands all on its own

      • bj

        Matthew 21:32 KJV (The words of Jesus)
        For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it , repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

      • bj

        Mark 11:27-33 KJV
        And they come again to Jerusalem: and as he was walking in the temple, there come to him the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders, [28] And say unto him, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority to do these things? [29] And Jesus answered and said unto them, I will also ask of you one question, and answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things. [30] The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? answer me. [31] And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then did ye not believe him? [32] But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed. [33] And they answered and said unto Jesus, We cannot tell. And Jesus answering saith unto them, Neither do I tell you by what authority I do these things.

      • JuliePurple

        BJ, here’s a technical tip: if you want to add something to what you’ve already said, if you’re already signed into whatever vehicle you’re using (in my case, it’s facebook), look at the bottom of your message and you’ll see where it says “edit”. Click on that, and your message shows up in the message-composing-box. Click in the box and the little cursor will appear and you can take it from there. Sometimes it takes a little bit before it shows up, though.
        It makes for less confusion. It looks like you’re replying to yourself, otherwise. Then again, maybe you were. :-)

      • bj

        Lol , I was, but I’ll use your tip from now on

      • JuliePurple

        :-D
        Sort of like that song that my husband likes to sing (I forget who wrote it): “Talkin’ to myself again, wonderin’ if this travelin’ is good…” The talkin’ part, not necessarily the travelin’ part. :-)

      • bj

        Lol, that’s an good one :-P

      • JuliePurple

        Thanks! I told my husband about it, and he got out his guitar and sang the whole song for me. Whatta guy!

      • bj

        Luke 24:11 KJV
        And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.

      • JuliePurple

        Perhaps all this not believing is because insufficient credible evidence was presented. Just sayin’.

      • bj

        Our very existence is proof.. If you read the bible, you would see for yourself that the evidence is here.. And I can tell u meant no harm, so just saying., its time to stop find ways around the truth and accept it for what it is. The reason the world doesn’t want Jesus is because it doesn’t want to obey the commands laid out.. But God is able to open your eyes to the Truth, all you have to do is ask for yourself

      • bj

        If Jesus said, I came that you may do whatever you please, then everyone would want him

      • JuliePurple

        Hi, BJ
        Nice to talk with you. True, I mean no harm, just trying to get to the real answers.
        No, our very existence is not proof that what those people said is believable. They were claiming things that needed special proof. And remember, about the Luke passage, it was the women who were telling the others about this. Women didn’t seem to be very well respected in biblical times.
        I don’t know about you, but if someone came up to me today and told me that a person he knew had done something miraculous, I’d want independent, objective verification. I expect they did back then, too. Remember, I said “insufficient *credible* information”.
        The bible is not a reliable source of information.
        As for the world not wanting Jesus, well, some do and some don’t. It’s kind of like saying the world doesn’t want Allah, or the Buddha. Some do and some don’t.

      • bj

        Hey Julie, I see your point. Its something you’ll have to ask him to reveal to you for yourself. I once too, was told time and time over, about Jesus.. But it took me to be in the darkest point of my life, to actually see him for who he was. Even when I turned my back on him, he never turned his back on me.. He’s saved from from so many things, over and over again. He took my faith from being doubtful and unsure, to knowing that I know against all odds and all that ppl may say, that he truly is , who he say he is. If u listen closely, you will hear him speaking.

      • JuliePurple

        Hey, BJ
        It’s totally cool that you’ve had such great experiences, and that they’ve worked out so well for you. But see, my thing is, I know the brain is a wondrous instrument whose capabilities we have not come close to fully understanding yet. How do we know that what some people call “mystical experiences” aren’t just some brain chemistry working to help us out? Like, you’d see (or perceive in some way) Jesus, while a Buddhist would see the Buddha or a Boddhisattva or something?
        I’ve had dreams that were so real to me that I thought events in them had really occurred. Like, I thought my husband had said something, and when I reminded him of it, he told me that he wished he had said it, but no, I had dreamed it. There have been other instances of my dreams seeming very real. So what I’m getting at is, how do you know your own brain didn’t manufacture the experiences? Again, I think it’s totally cool that you have something that works for you. And whether it was really Jesus, or just your brain helping out, it was a big help to you, and that’s the main thing.

      • bj

        Yes I see.. The experiences I’ve had, were nothing near the working of the brain. I don’t know if u believe in prophets today, but they very well exist. I’ve had prophets tell me things in the last few years that God said he would do to and thru me, and they very well have come to pass . some have taken months in not years, but they very well have happened. Even recently, an prophet sent me an message saying that God will bring and connect me with people of different thoughts and ideas, but not to allow that to push the ppl away, BC it will be his doing, and things will happen thru it. This aswell, is now coming to pass wow.. A lot of church goers give the world an bad portrait of who Jesus is. They judge the world unrightouesly, instead of love them. Before we believed and were once saved, we were also sinners in need of grace. I am commissioned to tell the Truth of the gospel, not to beat you down. I love you sister, and I know that God will make himself known to you. And remember, everyone who claims to be christian isn’t, so watch those who are quick to condemn you to hell.

        Luke 9:51-56 KJV
        And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem, [52] And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. [53] And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. [54] And when his disciples James and John saw this , they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? [55] But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. [56] For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them . And they went to another village.

      • JuliePurple

        Still, the events you described might have happened
        anyhow. It could have been good guesses on the part of the people telling you that.

        I have a request to make of you, for when you are talking with me. Please don’t use biblical passages to illustrate points. Use your own words. Because I don’t think the bible is a reliable source of information.
        Think of newspapers today. How accurate is the information in them? Even with the best of intentions, people don’t always get things right. I know I’ve had people interview me, then write up the interview, and when it’s published and I read it, I see things I never said! They got all wrong! And I know those interviewers
        were really trying to report accurately. Nobody had some agenda or was trying to prove anything to disbelievers. Did Jesus get to proofread what was said about him before it was published? Of course not. He died before any of it was written. And remember, he was presenting what were probably new concepts to those people. How likely was it that they understood him
        correctly? And don’t tell me it was “divinely inspired”. A lot of people make that claim and have completely different information from other people *also* making that claim. So, bearing in mind that the early writers *did* have an agenda and were trying to influence people, how accurate were their writings? I’m thinking, not very.

      • bj

        Thanks for your reply Julie.. However , it would be not only be very difficult to help you see the word, without using the word.. But also dangerous, but for the sake of Jesus, I will try. When I was aroundaround 5 or 6, riding with my dad in his pickup truck, we stopped at store got some candy. As we left I being to get tired, and laid on door. The last thing I remember was this sweet calm peaceful voice , which at the time I thought was my own thoughts said “put your hand in the door handle ( the truck was old fashion two door truck with big door handles ) and wrap arm around tight in case door opens.. I did. About 5 minutes later, my dad was making at sharp left turn at intersection right in front of my uncle house, and all I remember was waking up hanging out door. My dad was so drunk he didn’t realize, I was calling his name and he never heard me ( thanks is to Jesus that my heavenly father heard me ), and by the grace of God, my uncle and his friend was standing outside and flagged my dad to pull over. He dragged me for about 16 seconds before stopping. My legs were scrapped but that was all, and somehow my hand never slipped out the door handle, BC if so, i could have easily rolled und r the truck. ( looking back, I know it was the voice of the holy spirit)

      • bj

        And before anyone could ask, well why would an holy God allow that.., he allows that to teach us and show us his ways of communicating to us, and for other purposes that will benefit us in rhe future..and to show us what could happen if we don’t listen / obey. It took me 15 years to realize it was him speakingspeaking. Daniel would have never truely known the awesome power of God, Unless he had the experience in the lions den

      • noni

        Hey BJ, do you think a 5 or 6 year old boy or girl can remember events that happen in split seconds (16 in your story) after 15 years? Do you think a 5 or 6 year-old boy or girl has a belief system running in his/her brain thru reason? or brainwashing? You are watching too much fiction movies.

      • bj

        Hi Noni, first and foremost i want to compliment you for knowing that the event was around 15 years ago, 18 to be exact. Secondly , yes I do believe that “My God” , has power to bring all things back to my memory .. ( you should know that as bible confirms it, and you know it well, it just doesn’t know you :). ) Thirdly I rarely watch t.v., let alone fictional movies.. Thank you. And lastly, I want to make it known that your opinion is all well with my soul.. And no weapon you “form” against me, shall “prosper” for I am more than an conquer thru my savior Jesus Christ who strengthens me.. Amen.., amen.. Be blessed, and Have an great day :) !!!

      • JuliePurple

        I was impressed that Noni guessed your age, too! My thought is that maybe she got a clue from the abbreviations you use; aren’t they common in text messaging? And a lot of young people do a lot of text messaging. Or, could be Noni is just a lot more clever about people than I am. :-)

      • bj

        And yes, lol . I have an strong umption that Noni knows tons more, than she ‘s revealing.. I could go further, but I’ll stop there

      • JuliePurple

        Wow, BJ, what a scary experience! I’m glad you survived it! (And in such a cool way, too!) It very well may have been some sort of divine voice, but it also could have been your subconscious gleaning bits of information from the environment and presenting you with an exit strategy (so to speak :-) ) in a way you would react well to. Or it could have been something else entirely. That’s the thing: there’s no way to know. Actually, I kind of like the mystery.
        What a huge bummer, though, that your dad would drive like that, and with a little kid in the car, too. :-(

      • bj

        Lol thanks Julie, good to see ppl still care for one another. And yes that was way uncool to drive drunk, I thank God he’s cut back to 1 or 2 an day (considering he cpuld consume an 24 pack alone).. There’s been numerous times I should have been dead, but I give Jesus all the praise, for being on my side. God really loves you sis

      • Jeffery Surratt

        Or, it could of been information from GOD and nothing else.

      • Tom

        Julie
        Oh it was Jesus, alright. I would bank on it. but if you want to believe in something else that is okay. God is ultimately fair and he will judge you for living up to the light you have been given. I have known a few Budhists who lived better lives than many christians I’ve known. God will render a favorable judgment on them.

      • JuliePurple

        Tom, if it pleases you to believe it was Jesus, that’s cool. Nothing wrong with that. But forgive me for saying so , but your endorsement of BJ’s opinion of his experience does nothing to sway my mind about it. Because he might have been mistaken in his understanding of the event, firstly. And secondly, you were not there, you don’t know BJ, and the only source of information you have is a bit of text found on the internet. You personally have no way of determining the accuracy of his statements. Therefore, in forming my own opinion, I take that into account. However, I do understand that your and BJ’s belief in a miraculous occurrence is helpful to you both, and what I say is, if it helps you, that’s great!

      • Tom

        Julie
        I don’t go around worrying about being judged either.
        I too do the best I can according to my understanding of God. I believe that will do, because I believe God is fair
        and will judge everyone according to living up to what they know and how they applied the Golden Rule in their lives as they engaged with others.

      • Tom

        No, it only proves they are mixed up. It does happen.

      • JuliePurple

        True, Tom, it does. But if you think of the way people are today, consider how most people would react if someone told them that a person had performed deeds outside of the range of normal human capability? I know if my neighbor (or anyone else) came up to me and said, hey, there’s this marvelous individual who just raised my mom from the dead! I’d say, hey, cool, I’m glad for you and your mom. CPR is pretty nifty, isn’t it? … or some such. I’d assume standard medical intervention. Likewise any claims of miracles I would assume were due to either faulty observation or lack of understanding of the underlying science.
        I think people back then were pretty much the same. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. One simply cannot believe everything everybody says. However sincere they might be, they still can be mistaken in their facts.

      • Tom

        Julie
        I will not try to convince you otherwise to your belief, because you are as settled into yours as i am in mine.God is infinite and we are finite. We do not have the capability of totlly understanding Him. But He gives us enough evidence to believe he is the creator. Just look at the human brain, No computer can come even close. Yet somehow that is just evolved. Anyway, there is no need to play another round of ping pong here. You have a good day :)

      • JuliePurple

        Hi, Tom
        Actually, that’s kind of my point. If there is a being capable of creating an entire universe, it would be beyond our understanding. Anything we would like to believe about such a being is simply the use of our wonderful imagination in service to our wishful thinking.
        Tom, you’re aware of people breeding animals for characteristics they want to encourage, right? Like breeding cattle for better milk production, or dogs for …whatever? I remember when I was a kid, a collie was an incredibly smart dog, with a broad skull to accommodate that wonderful brain. Well, human intervention has bred a far less intelligent animal, because of a desire for a sleek, small skull. That animal has changed in my lifetime, due to selective breeding. Now, imagine animals in the wild. The strongest (or fastest, or most colorful, or whatever) are the ones that win mates, so they are the ones that reproduce. Carry this tendency for many generations, and you have species changing gradually over time. That’s all evolution is. Natural selection of mates for some special characteristics.
        I’m not asking you to forgo your belief in a celestial creator. I’m just asking you to use your wonderful brain. What’s saying that the creator didn’t program evolution into the mix?

      • Tom

        Julie

        Interesting perspective. i’ll store it for possible future reference. But still there had to be some beginning to it all and that could only be a creator like God. I completely understand cross breeding. As a young boy I used to raise chickens. Back then white leghorns were the top egg producers. Now there is the sex link, a hybrid, that produces eggs like the leghorn, but has slightly heavier features like the Rhode Island Red. Now back to the original subject, which came first, the chicken or the egg?

        Say, speaking of collies and cross breeding, did you hear the joke about the dog that was a cross between a collie and a pitbull. It was a dog that would bite you and then run for help. LOL

      • JuliePurple

        Thanks for the chuckle, Tom! I’ll share that one!
        Now, about beginnings… but see, the thing is, maybe there was and maybe there wasn’t. How do we *know* there had to be a creator like god?
        My perspective is that if there is a creator as such, it has to be the totality of all the laws of Nature (osmosis, gravity, speed of light, and so forth). My only question is: is that totality possessed of consciousness and will?

        My nephew Steven answered the chicken/egg question. The egg came first, because all mutations happen in the embryo. And speaking of chickens, my husband and I went to the county fair a couple of months ago, and saw some rather amazing chickens and roosters. The silkies blew me away! I got to pet one of them. Lovely! I also got to pet a chicken with golden brown feathers (I forget what breed it was). So soft! And the speckled ones are so pretty, and the ones with Einstein-like head feathers… wonderful!

      • Tom

        Julie

        I think i would rather talk about chickens than argue anymore with you about creation/evolution. The conversation is going no where. I have to disagree with your nephew that the egg came first. You see if that is so, then there would be no hen to sit on it and hatch it. No the hen and rooster came first. God created male and female of every species to procreate. The hen and rooster mate, the hen lays an egg, sits on it 21 days and
        it hatches and a chick is born. Now back to original subject(my how we have gotten off topic here)of homosexuality. Two roosters together were never in God’s original plan. So yes, God did create Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

        But along came the Fall when Eve ate of the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden. Now that sort of messed things up and mankind has been living with the fallout ever since. So I ask why would God deliberately make someone gay. Given all the trauma gays live with in dealing with mountains of negativity heaped on them, why would God want to deliberately make them gay.
        I think more likely it is sort of like the bird born with a broken wing. Please google on “God sees the little sparrow fall” and pick a link where children sing it, and then listen to it.
        Now tell me isn’t God going to have a little more tlc
        for gays? Jesus says unless you become as little children(teachable) you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. Perhaps its time christians became teachable like children, instead of turning into puffed up adults pontificating on people. It’s no small wonder to me why so many gays have turned against God and christians.
        Look who started this fight in the first place!

        Now one last word on the chickens. I like your Enstein-like head features discription of the Polish crested chicken. I call them the Phyliss Diller hens. You remember the late actress Phyliss Diller whose outlandishly rumpled hairdos were her trademark.
        Sort of a resemblence wouldn’t you say.

      • JuliePurple

        Tom, the mutation occurs in the egg that the bird lays. The hen hatches the egg with the mutation.
        We’ll have to agree to disagree about Adam and Eve. The story is just one of many creation myths invented by primitive peoples.

        To me, gay folks are just like anybody else. No better or worse. Just as worthy of love and legal protections (marriage, for example) as anyone else. Any prejudice against them is the produce of misguided religion.
        My best girlfriend is lesbian. My oldest male friend is gay. My sister-in-law is gay. I’m an artist, so of course I have gay friends. I support HRC (Human Rights Campaign, for legal equality of gays, lesbians, transgender, etc.) and PFLAG (Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays). So when you say to me that they are worthy of love, you’re preaching to the choir, metaphorically speaking. But the thing is, I don’t happen to think there is anything *wrong* with being gay. It’s just another way of being human.

      • Tom

        Julie
        This is interesting. In some ways I guess with what i have been saying about what I believe based on religious experience, just seems to be going past you, because you are not a believer. By believe I mean a believer in God. But the interesting thing about this conversation you and I have been having is that in our own way in our own spheres we have basically come to the same conclusions, a conclusion that many of my fellow christians can’t see, that gays are not a bunch of morons. Sorry if I postulated my religious beliefs on you, but I was basically trying to show you that I am a christian that believes that gays are okay. I was hoping that some gays might read our conversation and see that they really have some friends like me the christian community. I also hoped that some of my fellow christians might read our conversation and get a sobering look at a different perspective they may not have seen- like in a wake up call- that gays and evolutionists are neat people and not some #$*&^%$
        like so many christians think. What you tell me about your friends and the things you support helps me see an extended perspective but I will never be an evolutionist. Way back somewhere early in our conversation, you said you thought I was a nice person that could at least dialog with civility. Well I think the same about you.
        But I want you to please understand this, I never said anywhere in our discourse that I thought being gay was wrong. I have desparately tried to say this to you in my way and world view, But somehow you are not picking it up. But I think that is okay, Period. This time I will leave off any reference to someone you don’t believe exists.

        At the end of the day we agree about two of the most basic things, that you sum up in your last post to me.
        That prejudice against gays is the product of misguided religion. Being gay is just another way of being human. BINGO!
        Now could we sit down and have that piece of pie I talked about when i said we could probably have a nice conversation. And please invite all your gay friends to join us. I think they are really pretty neat.
        I’ll make a big pie so there is enough to go around for everyone! You bring the drinks, okay. I prefer something nonalcholic and healthy. :)

      • JuliePurple

        Tom, it’s not
        that your arguments are insufficient because you are a believer, but because
        you use references that I don’t accept as reliable. To me, the bible is not a reliable source of
        factual evidence. Period. It’s not that it goes past me as such, but
        that I simply disagree with it. If one
        must believe in something in order for it to make sense, then that says to me
        that the source is flawed. If you’ll
        note, my disagreements were with your comments about biblical references and
        science.
        Your own
        experience, however, is totally different from biblical references. When you write of your own experience, that makes sense to me. And I
        do get it that you are totally cool with gays, and that’s great! And it’s nice to know that you think “evolutionists”
        (i.e., people who respect scientific evidence) are neat people… I know some people
        who believe the bible is literally true, who are nice people, too. And I even have some relatives whom I love
        dearly who are Republicans. So it just
        goes to show you, you never know.
        As far as whether or
        not god exists, I think I told you in a different post what I thought
        about that. I believe the biblical
        concept of deity to be simply the best guess of a primitive people. If there is a god, it has to be far greater
        than human imagination can come up with.
        I’d rather meet one who surpasses my imagination; I could learn something, and be totally awed
        by awesomeness, and that would be really cool.

        Now, about that pie. Peach? Strawberry-rhubarb? Blueberry?
        I could bring raspberry zinger tea, would that work for you? For myself, if I don’t have to work or drive, I prefer a
        nice Riesling.

      • Jeffery Surratt

        Way to pettifog, Jesus is in Heaven, that is where he will come from. The Holy Spirit is the omniscient.

      • noni

        bj

        Do you remember the following post you made lately “What I believe he means is when the word which is the Spirit of God and the very words God speak, was borned as Jesus in the flesh.. The Jesus has always been , and always will be” ? So, how come you said in another post “BEFORE JESUS CAME”. What do you mean by “before Jesus came”? It is a complete reversal of what you just said above “The Jesus has always been, and always will be”.

      • John Carson

        oh good! setting yourself up as a superior works every time it’s tried… :rolleyes:

      • Tom

        Let’s just say that there are some aberations. Not intended by design but it does happen. That doesn’t automatically mean God loves them any less. He doesn’t throw anyone on the scrap heap. In fact he might just show more tlc because the rest of the litter want to reject him.

    • John Carson

      Actually, and I say this only from knowledge gained form research published by the medical community rather than from personal experience, boy boy parts do fit together naturally and furthermore it is possible for men engaging in sexual intercourse to experience orgasm from the stimulation of the sexual areas within his rectum, without any other external stimulation. That pretty well tells me that male on male sex is a natural act.

      • Tom

        John
        Now come on. I think you are pushing the envelope on this one.
        With this one you are providing ammo for the gay bashers. They will load up their howitzer for sure on this one. Better not go there.

    • Tom

      Mike
      You are right. A nut goes with a bolt. But that doesn’t mean you can’t hold something down with two bolts. It can work you know.

  • gooder1

    Matthew 19: “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

    Above Jesus is saying that a man will leave his “Mother & Father” to marry a woman himself, just as his father did. Jesus in this passage approaches it in a positive manner. St. Paul, in Romans 1, approaches the same teaching from the negative perspective. The teaching, though, is one and the same.

powered by the Paulists