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Our readers asked:

What did Jesus have to say about homosexuality?

Ann Naffziger Answers:

(CNS photo courtesy Catholic Communication Campaign)

If you were to read all four gospels thoroughly in search of Jesus’ teachings on homosexuality it would be a futile endeavor. Not only would you come to the end of the gospels without finding anything attributed to Jesus on the subject, you wouldn’t even find a single reference to the issue in any context.

In fact, there are only a handful of references to homosexuality in the entire Bible, but they are found in the Old Testament and Paul’s writings. (To put it in perspective, while there are only seven references to homosexuality, there are hundreds, perhaps thousands, of references to economic justice and the laws governing the accumulation and distribution of wealth.)

Jesus’ silence on the subject suggests that an issue which can be controversial and/or fraught with emotion these days was simply not a central issue in his lifetime 2,000 years ago in the land of Palestine. The fact that he didn’t address this issue leaves us all to ponder what he might say were he here today.

 
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The Author : Ann Naffziger
Ann Naffziger is a scripture instructor and spiritual director in the San Francisco Bay area. She has has written articles on spirituality and theology for various national magazines and edited several books on the Hebrew Scriptures.
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Please note that the editorial staff reserves the right to not post comments it deems to be inappropriate and/or malicious in nature, as well as edit comments for length, clarity and fairness.
  • Kay Oss

    In reply: So Intersex people are not loved because of your definition of parts. Fortunately being a human is more than just the sum of our parts. You would damn/dismiss people with birth defects. Or how about this old nut. “Marriage is only for procreation” so every woman or man who can no longer viably produce sperm/eggs/and or related hormones in order to procreate are no longer married. Sorry gramps and gran… And why are christians so literal about the old testament. The talmud and the old testament are NOT interchangeable. PS jesus didn’t believe in the old testament because he was a jew and read the talmud. ooops and the old testament didn’t exist until a ROMAN CEASAR wanted to simplify some stuff written AFTER the time of jesus and threw out this and that. Like the BOOK of RUTH tossed out for one reason it was written by a woman. Ooopsie. Or are you saying god went page 1 first sentence. He spoke to some prophets but where is the “prophet” that gave us genesis since it was “written about 5th-6th century” Not to mention the vast assortment of revisions. Mary Magdalene saw the risen jesus… oh crumb she’s one of those humans with those parts. Then it became a bunch (11) of unnamed apostles ooops then it became some added specific apostles and Mary is left. Please tell me that you know Mary the prostitute and Mary of (the town of) Magdalene and Mary the adulteress are 3 different people. Thanks pope gregory for making that oppsie dasie too. It must have something to do with our parts that make us disappear from the bible. If you are a true christian than you shouldn’t even be following the old testament. The reason jesus wasn’t considered the messiah to the JEWS is he didn’t follow their commandments. You do no that there are over 200 commandments beyond the 10. Which is why Jesus said I am the way. He even asked of his followers “you will follow MY commandments.” and goes on to summarize the main points which are 2. “Love thy lord” and “Love thy neighbor”. WOW jesus was about love forgiveness inclusion NOT exclusion. When he stopped the stoning of the adulteress. JESUS WAS REBELLING AGAINST THE RULES OF THE TALMUD (these same rules are included in the old testament). Because is something new he is the way. Don’t you think god in all his wisdom would have seen all this hate and gave you an ok on hating gay people. And why are “christians” so obsessed with sexuality and the use of those parts. Its either like a disease that needs to rubbed out (no pun intended) or a part of some distant mirage that never existed. There are plenty of other rules in the old testament “christians” don’t follow. So is religion now a buffet of practice “well stoning my children when they are disobedient” skip “if im widowed I have to marry my husbands male relatives” skip “gambling is also damned too” but lets protest gay marriage and not scratch off tickets – skip “it instructs us on how to care or not care for our slaves by how to beat our slaves – sk… oops that one was used to defend slavery. so…. skip later….And for those willing to just uncheck an entire branch of science called evolution than don’t use any modern medicine or medications that were developed using genetics. Geology so don’t use any earth based sciences like gasoline and materials to build your home. Be ever so vigilant that the mouths of men do not replace the words of god. Jesus also strongly speaks against witnessing oops missionaries. It also says Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image so stop with the crosses and the jesus fish. So NO JESUS DID NOT SAYING ANYTHING DAMNING about GAY PEOPLE (technically there isn’t a word for homosexual in aramaic in the old testament so maybe “effeminate” is the closest translation. But since we pick and choose out of the bible we can’t be that picky.

    • JuliePurple

      Kay, you GO, girl! Awesome!

    • Mike

      what is a ” So Intersex people” ????? is that a word made up to mean Homosexuals to sugar coat that word ?

      you seem to have put a lot of thought over time to try and speak your mind about this with the way you wrote it you being upset that you are a woman and no man seems pay you much mind in the things you say and you are perhaps upset that women over the years have been shunned and told to shut up we will not listen to you, (because of what happened in the Garden of Eden and Eve ) and how I gather that you are upset at a “God” that you see in your eyes as not a fair and open minded God … let not mans misunderstandings be yours too

      “The reason jesus wasn’t considered the messiah to the JEWS is he didn’t follow their commandments.”

      the reason some of the Jews of that time did not believe in Jesus was because they were of Satan for one. and they we so full of their own pride they did not want to follow God to begin with, that is them that changed God’s laws locking up the kingdom of Heaven so that they could no longer get into heaven let along Jewish converts.

      Jesus in what he did unlocked Heaven by abolishing the laws that the Jewish Priest of that time used to lock Heaven up with.

      that is why what you said that the reason Jesus wasn’t considered the messiah to SOME of the Jews because if them that you speak of did , then that means they would have to had to admit the truth then step down from there positions .. they would have lost there control and power they had over the Jewish people in them days.

      it is Pride that does that… have you not ever dealt with a control freak ? or understand the psychology and theology behind such persons?

      Jesus followed the Ten Commandments that God His Father gave man to obey, the rest where mans laws not GOd’s

      Catholics teach that if mans law we have today superseded God’s Laws then we do not have to obey them because that is man putting himself above God .. therefore, as we do not follow man but God hence that teaching

      • Monica Boothe

        wait…what?? when was the Book of Ruth “Tossed Out”?

    • gooder1

      Kay,
      You need to relax. God is not out to strike people down to hell. Whenever anyone goes there, it is that person who throws him/herself there. When coming face to face with God, the soul sees how far it has drifted from God during its lifetime, it sees the vast difference between what its life had become versus the Truth that God calls each of us to live by. God agonizes over everyone who plunges into the eternal abyss. He wants to be merciful, but the soul is frozen in its eternal state once separated from the body. If it dies in the state of repentance, it will be saved, and ultimately get to heaven, if it dies in the state of reviling against God, it will be eternally lost.

    • Tekkenfighter123

      Thank you Kay Oss. I’m not going to go into detail, but you helped me so much. I hope you keep making post. I wish I could articulate the way that you do.

  • Mike

    for everyone especially @noni @gooder1:disqus @Jonathan @Tim J Petrizzi @Soonershark @William Lewis @LiberalGilt:disqus

    souls do have a gender, Mother Mary and every other woman that went
    to heaven all the women saints are just that women, not something with
    no gender and a face of a woman. the same goes for men.

    Sodom and Gomorrah

    the men wanted to have sex with the angles they too where men, that is what
    brought about the total destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. as that is a
    man wanting to have Sex with God himself, because they are messengers of
    God, therefore they too are god. it is oneness.

    too, this is where we get the term sodomy which is anal sex, which too is a sin. because it is an unnatural sexual act.

    when God made man and woman then he called it mankind. they were not made just man and called it mankind.

    man and woman were created then called mankind then God said to be fruitful and multiply.

    and woman and woman cannot do this.

    and a man and man cannot do this.

    therefore how can one say that Homosexuals are even born that way?

    for God never created a homosexual soul because he did not created mankind
    for a homosexual existence. if God did create mankind for a homosexual
    existence then he would have told us.

    commonsense and logic is what is needed to find the truth as well. not just justifications and made up stories that use no logic, that tell you that souls have no gender.

    @Soonershark stated in his post that souls have no gender using this passage to back it up, where he or she has no idea that it means because that person did not apply what it need to gain understanding of this passage, as well as no understating of God and everything to do with Him, therefore being ignorant of God that person made that statement, and is living in the dark as a result of it.

    Galatians 3:28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor
    free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

    that speaks of both specifically and symbolism within that statement.

    specifically,
    Jew nor Greek, that is belief systems. neither, means it is no more,
    but now one belief system that is Jesus’ Teachings.

    symbolically

    there is no male and female, because it is a spiritual marriage one obtains with Christ when they become one with him.

    for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

    when you speak of what you do not know or understand it will always get you
    into trouble because misconceptions and lies come out of it.

  • noni

    This post is for Ann Naffziger on her answer to the question about “What did Jesus have to say about homosexuality”.
    I am most particularly concerned about the following statement from your answer “The fact that he didn’t address this issue leaves us all to ponder what
    he might say were he here today” which leave a big question on Jesus’ divinity. When you say “what he (Jesus) might say were he here today” denotes an admission that he (Jesus) is not here today. If he is not here today, where is he? If he is God (according to the christian doctrine) then he must be very much present yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

    • LiberalGilt

      Are you getting messages?
      No?
      Must not be here

    • Monica Boothe

      Noni, I am trully curious, If you dont believe in God, Jesus, The Holy Spirit, The Trinity, Or Heaven and Hell…2 questions…Do you believe in Satan? and if not…What do you believe in?

      • noni

        Before answering your 2 questions, let me clarify one thing based on your statement “The fact that he didn’t address this issue leaves us all to ponder what
        he might say were he here today”. In your christian doctrine, Jesus is God. Isn’t it? If he (Jesus) is God, how can you say “were he here today”? If he (Jesus) is not HERE today, then he is not God. Now, to answer your question #1 (Do you believe in Satan?). Since you ask this question l assumed you believed in satan (l repeat the word satan for l cannot use the pronoun him or her because satan doesn’t exist. Satan exist only in your bible. A christian construct. Question #2 (What do you believe in?). In this question, you are suggesting that your God, Jesus, The Holy Spirit, The Trinity, Or Heaven and Hell are something to be believed in. Am I right? How can you ask such a question when you yourself don’t even believe that Jesus is HERE today. “WHAT HE MIGHT SAY WERE HE HERE TODAY”

  • Mike

    the mear logic that boy boy and girl girl parts just do not fit together like they are suppose to should tell you that homosexuality is not normal. God is normal — you cannot mix a normal with an abnormal and expect to get good results.

    • noni

      You said homosexuality is not normal. Is it not that according to the christian doctrine, God created us all in his likeness, therefore perfect, normal human beings. Did your God erred in his creation that homosexuals cropped up?

      • LiberalGilt

        Us in his likeness doesnt mean gay. Why do you feel the need to twist the words to fit our agenda?

      • noni

        I’m sorry, you seemed to be barking on the wrong tree.

      • Mike

        no do read my general post in here. as well as Homosexuality came after God created mankind. therefore it was not created by God but came about in a different way other then God.

      • noni

        You said “therefore it was not created by God but came about in a different way other then God” My goodness, Mike, please read Genesis chapter 1. Before God created the Heavens and the Earth, there was nothing. Homosexuals are beings, therefore they are created. Since only God is the creator, how can you say “therefore it was not created by God”. Wake up man!

      • Dwardy

        Homosexuality is an abomination to God. It’s NEVER accepted. I was once a drag-queen but God has been transforming me to the person I was originally created for. God is holy and we must be holy, for without holiness, no one can see God.
        Man having sex with another man is bluntly immoral and perverse – I can imagine the evil things I have done with other men before and I could say that they are acts of evil! Good thing Jesus took me away from that mud!

      • bj

        Amen.. I give God glory for your willingness to share and honesty., and thank you as well

      • Mike

        my my you seem not have have a full understanding of the English language.

        but came about in a different way other then God

        sally came to my house by the main road and by a different way other then the main road johnny came to my house.

        see if you can wrap your heard around that and figure out by which way johnny came to my house.

      • noni

        Mike, before answering your query, l would like you to straighten up your sentences, kind of a little “polished one”. Fair enough?

      • Mike

        thank you for answering my question already by what you just said to me. as it shows me that you already understand what it is I am saying to you. and that it is more important to you in how I say it then what it is I am saying to you.

        just by “asking” me if you can rephrase it for me to show me how to straighten up my sentences for you so they just look more “polished” to you. before you will answer my questions to you.

        I have a better I idea as you already understand what it is I asked you. and you like to focus on the un important. re focus your whole life instead BY YOU straightening up your life for God so you will be more polished for Him so he don’t toss you into where all the dirty souls go and get turned into what they really look like to Him in the end.

      • noni

        Do you still remember the rules of “argumentation & debate” in your philosophy subject in college? Evading a question is a violation of the rules. My suggestion is to straighten up your sentence so that you will be understood but instead you get back to me, telling me to straighten up for God. Is this what you learned in school or in your church? It is sad.

      • Mike

        yes sad is the word for you, because you need to have it written just so or else you won’t answer the question as I see you did understand it, as well as my rebuttal to you for nit picking, as if you are suffering from Obsessive Compulsive personality disorder , then you again take it back to mans rules you need to play by and not God’s to play your little mind games you play in here.

        P.S. by your own rules you play by.
        Evading a question is a violation of the rules.

        you evaded my question with your ‘hey let you show me how to rephrase that sentence to make it look snappy sharp’ to impress yourself and others’ and then you can understand what you told be better. line of blah blah blah

        because that is all you were doing.

        you broke your own rules you are now telling me I have to play by. mans rules and not Gods ….

        what does that make you?

      • noni

        Let us not talk about God’s laws and ways for a moment. Let’s talk about rules of argumentation & debate. Let’s be honest, have you taken up argumentation & debate in college? If yes, then you know the rules. If not, then forgive me for asking. Thank you.

      • Mike

        if all you want to do is lie to me as you evaded my question first when you knew what I meant — for one thing, and for another — as it seems all you want to do is come in here and “debate” and argue against God all the time — all this is doing for you is nothing — it just feeds your false since of pride that you won an argument — but you lost your soul — that will be the end point of the games you play if you do not change your ways –

      • noni

        How do you know that l knew what you meant? Can you read my mind? That’s why l asked you to straighten your sentence so l can understand what your are saying and can appropriately answer your question. That’s just a simple English problem and you complicate it. Here’s a piece of advice: When you post, take your time. Make sure the reader will understand what your are talking about before you post.

      • JuliePurple

        Noni, I SO wish that everybody would follow what you suggested here! Clarity! Yea!

      • bj

        Mike if I were you, I would just leave it alone. The word says to not debate over the scriptures.. It is what it is. And it also says there are some that will just refuse to believe, regardless of what you , I , anyone say.. Just pray God deals with his/her heart and take your rest bro. The rest is between them and God.

      • Mike

        OK, lets look at it like this then. in Gen. God created Adam then put him in the Garden of Eden. then out of his rib he formed a woman. were either one of them homosexual? NO.

        we know this because God told them to multiply. a woman and woman cannot create a baby between the two of them.

        a man and man and man cannot create a baby between the two of them.

        this way of life is a direct contradiction to God and what he told the man and woman to do.

        Therefore, homosexual behavior came after God created man and woman. and is a direct contradiction to God.

        “therefore it (homosexuality) was not created by God but came about (happened) in a different way other then God” (doing).

        There are only two left to pick from then, as God is eliminated it that equation. This is called the process of elimination.

        you now have man and Satan and the fallen Angles that do not do what God wants them to do left to pick from.

        these two “Creations” Love to contradict God a lot!!!!!!!

        keeping in mind man has freewill so even man (or woman) can pick to do Satan’s will if they want to, just by not doing God’s will. if they pick Satan’s will — which in itself is a contradiction to God because they are no longer doing what God created them for, due to freewill. therefore you or anyone that is not doing God’s will is a contradiction to God.

        because you are now in and by what you or that person is not doing.

        do you have an understanding of the word contradiction and how it is applied?

        definition : a combination of statements, ideas, or features of a situation that are opposed to one another.

        if you are not doing what God intended mankind to do, then you are now opposed to God. therefore you are a contradiction to God in yourself, just by being alive.

        but God does not kill you over it. NO he lets you use your freewill to either kill yourself or get with God’s program and save yourself through Jesus, by doing what Jesus did.

        obeying all of His commandments — and his ways. they are intertwined together like your souls is to your flesh.

        that maybe hard for you to understand because you are so opposed to God right now.

      • Mike

        God never created a homosexual you have to have a masters degree in psychology to even try to understand it therefore I am not going to try and explain it to you

        but GOD set laws against it even before Jesus showed up

        Leviticus 18

        22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable. 23 “‘Do
        not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A
        woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations
        with it; that is a perversion.

      • noni

        Hey Mike, you said “even before Jesus showed up”, why? Did Jesus come from somewhere? I thought you catholics believed that Jesus and God are the same, so, why say “even before Jesus showed up”? How soon you forgot when Jesus said “before Abraham was l am”.

      • Mike

        are you really looking for understanding of your creator or do just enjoy coming in here with alternative motivations?

        pick one then maybe I’ll try to educate you

      • noni

        I’m just curious Mike. You catholics don’t seem to understand what you believe. In your trinity doctrine, there is only one God, father, son, and holy ghost. It is omnescient. When you said “Jesus showed up” meaning he was not here before. Since God is omniscient and Jesus is God (in your trinity) he must be omniscient too. Reading your line of argument makes one wonder what kind of catholic are you.

      • gooder1

        The Trinity is one God, with three divine Persons existing within the Godhead. Jesus is the Word (John 1:1-3, John 1:14). When the Word became flesh, is when Jesus, the Son, took on a human nature. Jesus, however, would in a sense suppress his divinity so to endure the struggles of man. In other words, how would his sacrifice be a true sacrifice, had he not actually suffered it. How could he experience hunger, unless he suffered it. Whenever Jesus spoke by means of his divinity, he would receive it through prayer, to show us how prayer works. Jesus could certainly tap into his divinity at any time, but chose instead to show us true discipleship, based on reliance upon God. He performed miracles, but would likely pray before to show us how prayers are answered. So Jesus could have done anything, but he instead showed us how life aught to be lived, and that we are all called to live life as he did. He dealt with issues as they presented themselves. And when asked questions, he would allude to the Old Testament showing how they had many of their answers already, but chose instead to ignore them. As for homosexuality, well there was probably not a whole lot of that within the Jewish groups, as they followed the Law, which forbade it. But we see later on in the New Testament that Paul certainly had his hands full with it in the Gentile Nations, and had to directly address it.

      • noni

        Let’s not talk about trinity because nobody can understand the trinity. Even those who invented it can’t even explain it. If you pretend that you know it, then there is something wrong with you.

      • gooder1

        noni:

        Even though the Trinity of God has a mystery to it, we can still talk about the understandable reality of God as set forth in Sacred Scripture:

        Jesus said to the Jews: “before Abraham came to be, I AM” (Jn 8:58-59). The angels were created (Col
        1:16, Rom 8:38-38), but Jesus was begotten (Heb 1:5), and in the perfect image of the Father (Heb 1:3), that makes Him God as well:

        Notice how both Jesus and the Holy Spirit “proceed” from the Father (Jn 8:42 & Jn15:26). But the Holy Spirit is not merely the Spirit of the Father (Matt 10:20), He also proceeds from, and is, the Spirit of the Son (Gal 4:6, Acts 16:7, Rom 8:9, Phil 1:19). The Holy Spirit is also a Person (Paraclete = Helper, Representative, Advocate), with personal attributes being ascribed to Him: teaching truth (Jn 14:16), giving testimony for Christ (Jn 15:16), having the knowledge of the mysteries (1Cor 2:10), forecasting future events (Jn 16:13, Acts 21:11), and installing bishops (Act 20:28).

        See how all three Persons are responsible for the supernatural work of forgiving sins (Mat 9:2, Luke 7:48, 23:34, and John 20: 22).

        As for the hierarchy of God, well, Jesus receives from the Father: “I declare to the world what I have heard from him [the Father].” (John 8:26). Then the Spirit receives from Jesus (John 16:15).

        More Scripture on this hierarchy of God: John 15:26, “But when the Advocate has arrived, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, he will offer testimony about me.”

        The Trinity is by all means a mystery, but we still need to do our best to unravel what has been revealed: For example, Eph 4:4-6 has “one Spirit…one Lord…one God”. These words give us a glimpse into the Trinity, but just enough to have us craving for more.

        This Christmas might be fun to study the Incarnation a little bit closer, to understand what we are actually celebrating. The New Testament witnesses that all three Persons were involved in the Incarnation–the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35); the All Highest, and the Son of the All Highest (Luke 1:32). To further this thought see where each Person is considered fully responsible for the act of the Incarnation: The Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35), the Son (Phil 2:7), and the Father (Heb 10:5)–all co-participants–all are God. See how John uses God to refer to Jesus as “the only begotten God” (Jn 1:18).

        There is much here, but the Trinity is a logical conclusion; it tells us that God is, in a sense, a Divine Family. Some of this has been gleaned from the writings of Ludwig Ott.

      • noni

        You keep repeating the passages in the bible to prove your point. How can you prove your point when the reference or evidence you used is unreliable, untrue, and full of lies. In my previous reply to you, l cited to you a few bibles passages like John 7:8-10 and the genealogies of Jesus by Matthew and Luke but you took notice only on the genealogies but not on John. Why? because, you cannot stand the lies committed either by Jesus or by John. So, please stop reciting the bible again. Make your own reasoning. Use your own mind. I know its difficult to detach yourself from the brainwashing you have undergone since your childhood. What a pity. Your are wasting your brain.

      • gooder1

        John 7:8-10

        8 Go to the feast yourselves; I am not going up to this feast, for my time has not yet fully come.” 9 So saying, he remained in Galilee. 10 But after his brothers had gone up to the feast, then he also went up, not publicly but in private.

        We spoke earlier of the textual variations of the Greek New Testament manuscripts. And John 7:8 has many variants: some include “yet,” others do not. The earliest Greek manuscript of John, P66, ~AD 200, includes “yet.” That sentence would read “…I am not going up to this feast yet, for my time has not yet fully come…”

        The manuscripts are not perfect. In fact, one should marvel at how much excellent work had been done by the scribes over the centuries. Imagine a Catholic monk copying scripture for 18 hours per day, often by candle light, getting tired and weary. If one mistake is made, then every manuscript copied from his manuscript would contain the same error. And on it went down through the centuries. The monks in their faithfulness were still only human.

        If you could do better, then fine, but my feeling is you would fare no better. You should not be so critical of less than perfect work done in good faith; we must tip our hats to the valiant efforts made by the monks and scribes. Instead of criticizing and accusing, why not try being humble and meek; that would be my recommendation.

        As for the Trinity, well of course the arguments for it will come from Scripture. The existence of God, though, can certainly be concluded in just looking at nature itself, by asking questions such as, where did life come from to begin with? And not just human, or animal, but plant life, as well. We’ve explored other planets in our solar system, and they are just dry dust bowls. Why is our planet so fertile, why do we have the breath of life? Why can we not revive a dead body that has been on the slab for a day or so? Why not? It has all the proper matter. It has all the things in place, but we cannot make it live. Why do we get old? Why can’t man in all his wisdom stop aging? Or why does our planet seem indestructible? We do all we can to destroy it, but it just adapts, morphs, changes as needed to continue. Why do our bodies rot once life leaves them, and go back to fertile matter on this earth from which crops will flourish? What a terrific system we must all say! Why do our bodies have a brain that thinks. All the animals have brains, but they follow instinct, the natural order of things. A sheep’s brain has a huge smell center. Interesting. Why does a calf know to stand up the minute it is born, and go for its mother’s nipples for milk? Why? Why? Why? In our day, people are so distracted with games and gadgets, they have lost the quiet time needed to think about things, and marvel at God’s creation.

      • noni

        So you concede that errors exist in the bible and these errors are due to human frailness of the monks and scribes in copying the scripture. Is not the bible a handiwork of your God? Your church’s doctrine teaches that the bible is inerrant. Inspired word of God or the word of God. Have you not noticed that after the readings of scriptures during celebration of a catholic mass, it is always followed by the phrase “the word of the lord”. So the scripture is really the word of God, otherwise it will not be incorporated in the mass. If there are errors in the bible, why didn’t the church authorities correct them? Do you know why? They won’t do that because if they do, there will be no bible left.

        I don’t it is an error. It is deliberate. What about interpolation in the bible. To insert or add something into the text cannot be called an error of the weary and tired monks and scribes. Take the case of Mark’s gospel, verses 9-20 of chapter 16. It is pure and simple addition. The oldest known Greek manuscript of the NT has only 8 verses in chapter 16 of Mark’s gospel.

        I am neither criticizing nor accusing the scribes. I am just trying to let you know that the bible is an unreliable proof of your God’s existence. Read the entire bible from cover to cover and you will find for yourself (not from the priest) how horrible is its story and despite that, the catholics call it a word of God.

        About the trinity. You admit it is a mystery, why then insist in promoting it, teaching it especially to the little children, poisoning their young minds with lies since you yourself don’t even have a clue on what it is all about. Yeah you are right when you say that God can be better understood thru nature. This is where l can find in you something true and real you. God’s story cannot be written in a book, for who can write it right. Not Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Moses, etc. No one.

        Jesus didn’t write a book, not even a single word about God because he knew he cannot do it but despite that the catholics made him God.

      • gooder1

        noni:
        Jesus is the Word of God (John 1); he didn’t have to write it. In fact we only have one mention in the NT where Jesus actually wrote (John 8:1-11), and it was probably the sins of each of the accusers of the woman caught in adultery. Anyway, the Church is clear that only the original writings are the inspired Word of God. The copies we have now are not inspired, but they are considered to be a faithful transmission of the original Word, as well as we can expect down from through the ages. As far as believing in God, and the Trinity. Well, God has given each of us a brain to think with, so I try to apply some common sense to it all. Theists will proclaim belief in God, but feel that man cannot know him beyond that. I tend to disagree. We are clearly better than the animals, so why not use the gift? Does a dog wake up in the morning and say to itself, “wow, what a nice day; I think I will go out and do something constructive today, so let me go take a quick shower, and get to it. Or does a rooster wake up and say man this hen house stinks, let me clean it up. No, of course not. The way I see it, God created all that we know; I can’t imagine there’s a better explanation. He probably said let there be light, and then there was a big bang, a loud blast, an intense explosion, emanating extreme radiation, and from which, matter was hurled outward, slowly unfolding over the course of millennia a universe, whose beauty was great to behold. During the course of this act, planets slowly came together, attaching themselves through gravity to the nearest burning ball of hydrogen still afire from the big bang. With each star forming a separate solar system and finding itself grouped into galaxies, all interacting with the universe. And it makes sense that at some point, God would ultimately choose one or more of the planets to initiate life, life that was multi-fold, a system designed to last, adapt, change as needed to hold things in the balance. It stands to reason that He infused this matter with DNA, a replicating mechanism by which all life now had the ability, or the power to transmit its own life, but not just man, all life. Vegetation uses seeds and other means to keep itself in existence, animals use sperm & egg, or other, to keep life going beyond its own limit. In a sense we all have the power of God, to create and transmit life. That is a wild thought. But of course all things have regulation. The animals do not stray too far from their natural programming, they follow nature, or the natural law. Man is the only one who has in a sense limited instinct, but has the gift of reason to discover things and go beyond the instincts given to the animals. And … we should ask the question: why would God care to do such a thing if he did not have a divine purpose for man? Otherwise wouldn’t man just be like the monkeys? Just living for the day, living in the wild, swinging from trees, and looking for the next female to impregnate as its nature has determined? Wouldn’t that be man’s purpose if God thought to make life follow his natural law? Of course it would, unless of course, God had greater things in mind for man. What if God gave man the ability to think and reason so that he could communicate with the Author of the Universe? And if that is the case, wouldn’t God try to reach out to man? At least giving man enough proof for him to use his sense of reason to pursue the All Mighty, for him to search for the One who is responsible for it all? Well I say yes; to me that is the only thing which makes sense. But of course when God gave man a mind to think, he also knew that man could choose evil, as well. And that is the risk of creating such a being. Man can either do good for himself and his society, or man could become a monster. So God gives us that choice, and that is the creature known as man. And it seems that once man could think, he quickly departed from the ways of nature, and entered into the life of sin. So God challenges us, but He loves man, and still believes that man can and will use his brain to pursue his Author. And to me, the entering into the world of the person Jesus Christ was God’s cryptic way of revealing to us his very nature. Some rejected Jesus; others followed. But it is interesting that in Matthew 16 Jesus promised a church that would last until the end of time, and hey, all other entities have long since perished, but the Catholic Church remains to this day. So I have no reason to dismiss the Church or its teachings. To me that Promise made by Jesus is proof enough that he had the Power to keep that promise. So to me the Church makes sense. And back to the animal versus man thought, well, it would seem that even though man has been given a mind to think, in some cases, the animals do a better job following the will of God, than the man of reason.

      • bj

        I don’t know what happen to you, but you shouldn’t blame God. I have an strong sense you’ve once cried out to God, and believed it to be to no avail (help), therefore becoming angry with him. But I do believe, you still know deep down, i n the secret places, that God is exactly who he says he is.. And that somehow, by being angry he will cave in and do your will in your life alone., but that’s not how it works. Until we surrender to his will, and his alone, we can never be satisfied. Until we believe by faith, we can never satisfy him . Believe me or not, I know. I tried every trick to make God prove himself, to make him move on my time, and to even try and convince myself that, he isn’t God. But guess what, he still showed me that I was nothing, and he alone is God the Father. And once I accepted it, he began to manifest himself and make an Change in my life. Even now, as an believer, it isn’t always peaches and cream, but as sure as he says he will, he always turns every bad situation into good for me who loves him. He’s been more than great, awesome to me in my life. I can’t find one complaint. Even the things I want to do, such as sexual desires that he commands us not to, doesn’t compare to the greatest within him.. And I’ve learned to make peace with the fact that he has my best interest at hand, and if he asks me not to do an thing, its because down the road and up the corner, he see’s the destruction it will cause.

      • noni

        You wrote “Even the things I want to do, such as sexual desires that he commands us not to”. Are you sure God commands us not to? Why did he allow the daughters of Lot to have sex with their father?

      • JuliePurple

        The biblical concept of deity doesn’t seem to have much respect for women. I know a lot of people will talk about Mary, mother of Jesus, but they had to try and make her into something beyond what real women are.

      • Mike

        How can you prove your point when the reference or evidence you used is
        unreliable, untrue, and full of lies. In my previous reply to you,

        if you used that line of thought for everything that one can learn and discover then you’d be doing what you are doing with your own salvation to everything in your life — getting no where

      • JuliePurple

        Sorry to butt in here, Noni, but I had to say that I’ve had the same problem again and again. People use unreliable data to back up their claims. It’s very frustrating! But I have to say this, too: Gooder at least debates in a civilized manner, avoids insults and invective. That, to my way of looking at it, is a huge plus!

      • bj

        God (The Father), who sent his Word , born as a human man named Jesus ( the Son), who thru his death gave us an opportunity to be forgiven, freed and healed from our sin, and to be endowed with his Spirit (Holy Spirit), who leads us into all truth, and keeps us sealed unto the day of redemption.. And PS.. I’m not Catholic, with no harm given.. I just know Jesus to be my Savior.. The realest entity I know

      • JuliePurple

        It sorta seems to me that maybe the trinity is like a person. A person has a physical body, emotions, and character (or basic nature, or soul, or life energy, or whatever you want to call it). It’s not a perfect analogy, but I think it’s that sort of thing. So it looks like they’re trying to make something pretty simple into a Big Deal mystery. Not saying whether or not there is any truth at all to the idea of a god-jesus-holy ghost trinity, now; just talking about the concept. It seems to me that when they talk about Big Deal mysteries, it’s either because they just haven’t figured out a good way to explain it, or else it’s something they either really don’t know, or just made up.

      • noni

        Hi Julie, don’t bother. They are just a bunch of apologist, trying hard to please their master in the Vatican, to justify their existence. Period.

      • JuliePurple

        Hi, Noni
        Well, you may be right, but still I like to try to figure things out, regardless of what other people think. As for the guy in the Vatican, at least the current one isn’t as bad as the one before! That one (Ratzinger) was a real piece of work.
        Be that as it may, it’s still interesting to try to see things in a different way, especially when it’s making things simpler. (Well, *I* thought it was simpler! :-D)

      • Mike

        reading everything you write I know what kind of person you are and where you will end up after you die if you do not change your ways — nit picking everything that matters not what you really believe about it. Because God nor Jesus never spoke of it. Two separate People one God, then you have the HOLY SPIRIT so now it is three people One God —

        do you think God is going to give you a pop quiz after you die and if you do not answer how this Holy Trinity thing really works — well guess what you failed the test no you get to go to Hell because of it?

        Jesus showed up, came out of a womb of a woman, was born into this world, how ever one puts it, the main point is Jesus did it is the fulfillment of the LAW, then he told you what you needed to do, and he showed you how to be as well, everything that one needs to know so that they too can do it too, so that that person that does it too can go to Heaven.

        if you or me or anyone in this whole world that has heard of Jesus does not do as Jesus told us to do then it is to hell with you and everyone else, that does not do the aforementioned.

      • noni

        Do you really believe in HELL? Did anyone been there and came back telling you its true? Who told you about this crap? The priest, the bishop, the pope? Come on Mike, get real.

      • Mike

        you are an atheist what are you even doing in here trying to learn about Christianity when all you are is CLOSED MINDED and argumentative — and you cannot even present a good argument. this is all childish lame arguments. and pretending you do not have a good understanding of the English language — I have no idea how old you are but it is too bad for you for you to be the way you are in how you use your mind against the one that gave it to you to use.

      • noni

        What is an atheist Mike? Can you define it for me so l can tell if your definition fits your description of me as an atheist. Thank you.

      • Mike

        see right there just by that question – playing stupid — and that is all you are doing is playing games in here you have this cycle of games you play in here just to argue and ever get anywhere with your life.

        you are like a dog chasing it’s tail. it’s never gets anywhere.

      • noni

        If you don’t want to answer my question, fine. Wait a minute, there is something wrong with the last line of your reply which says “it’s never gets anywhere”. I will not tell you what’s wrong with it. I want you to figure it out yourself. The word “stupid” is not nice. Be careful, it might come back to you.

      • noni

        Hey Mike, when you wrote ” I will not share with you the answer to that mystery — you are not worthy of it” , I want you to shake your head first to make sure you are not dreaming. Mystery is something that baffles understanding and cannot be explained and you said you have the answer to that mystery. Get real. Be honest. If you are a catholic as you claimed you are, be true to your faith if you have one. If you don’t, please don’t pretend.

      • bj

        What I believe he means is when the word which is the Spirit of God and the very words God speak, was borned as Jesus in the flesh.. The Jesus has always been , and always will be.

      • Mike

        basic concepts was never your forte in high school was it ?

      • HanTzu

        Spelling was never yours, was it? Re: “mear”

      • bj

        Jesus was the word, and from the beginning the word was with God, and the word is God.. The word came to save us all , the world just refuses to believe and deny him .. The fact that a lot of evil men and sinners are still walking around with breath in their bodies shows the grace of GodGod ( and I know, should have been dead several times over).. Before Jesus came, you didn’t have the grace to mess up as now.., you wouldnt have but so little chances before destruction came. You don’t have to believe me, but you should really seek Jesus for yourself, and ask him to reveal himself to you.. I mean what can you lose by doing it, beside pride and a mind set on living in ways that pleases the flesh. Once we are face to face with God, its no ” oh I didn’t know, or give me another chance”.. Your another chance is today , right now.. And every man shall have the chance to be ministed to, before going to judgment or before Jesus returns. The word of God can either be an witness to you , or an witness against you on that day of judgment.. Your choice to decide. But either way, you have been told and the decision is no longer on God, but you alone.

      • noni

        You sound like an old schooled catholic. Your opening post is quoted from John’s gospel. Do you understand what you are quoting about?

      • bj

        I’m wondering the same.. Do you really know what you’re talking about. I’m here to debate the word. “It is, what it is” Whether you like it or not, it stands all on its own

      • bj

        Matthew 21:32 KJV (The words of Jesus)
        For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it , repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

      • bj

        Mark 11:27-33 KJV
        And they come again to Jerusalem: and as he was walking in the temple, there come to him the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders, [28] And say unto him, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority to do these things? [29] And Jesus answered and said unto them, I will also ask of you one question, and answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things. [30] The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? answer me. [31] And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then did ye not believe him? [32] But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed. [33] And they answered and said unto Jesus, We cannot tell. And Jesus answering saith unto them, Neither do I tell you by what authority I do these things.

      • JuliePurple

        BJ, here’s a technical tip: if you want to add something to what you’ve already said, if you’re already signed into whatever vehicle you’re using (in my case, it’s facebook), look at the bottom of your message and you’ll see where it says “edit”. Click on that, and your message shows up in the message-composing-box. Click in the box and the little cursor will appear and you can take it from there. Sometimes it takes a little bit before it shows up, though.
        It makes for less confusion. It looks like you’re replying to yourself, otherwise. Then again, maybe you were. :-)

      • bj

        Lol , I was, but I’ll use your tip from now on

      • JuliePurple

        :-D
        Sort of like that song that my husband likes to sing (I forget who wrote it): “Talkin’ to myself again, wonderin’ if this travelin’ is good…” The talkin’ part, not necessarily the travelin’ part. :-)

      • bj

        Lol, that’s an good one :-P

      • bj

        Luke 24:11 KJV
        And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.

      • JuliePurple

        Perhaps all this not believing is because insufficient credible evidence was presented. Just sayin’.

      • bj

        Our very existence is proof.. If you read the bible, you would see for yourself that the evidence is here.. And I can tell u meant no harm, so just saying., its time to stop find ways around the truth and accept it for what it is. The reason the world doesn’t want Jesus is because it doesn’t want to obey the commands laid out.. But God is able to open your eyes to the Truth, all you have to do is ask for yourself

      • bj

        If Jesus said, I came that you may do whatever you please, then everyone would want him

      • JuliePurple

        Hi, BJ
        Nice to talk with you. True, I mean no harm, just trying to get to the real answers.
        No, our very existence is not proof that what those people said is believable. They were claiming things that needed special proof. And remember, about the Luke passage, it was the women who were telling the others about this. Women didn’t seem to be very well respected in biblical times.
        I don’t know about you, but if someone came up to me today and told me that a person he knew had done something miraculous, I’d want independent, objective verification. I expect they did back then, too. Remember, I said “insufficient *credible* information”.
        The bible is not a reliable source of information.
        As for the world not wanting Jesus, well, some do and some don’t. It’s kind of like saying the world doesn’t want Allah, or the Buddha. Some do and some don’t.

      • bj

        Hey Julie, I see your point. Its something you’ll have to ask him to reveal to you for yourself. I once too, was told time and time over, about Jesus.. But it took me to be in the darkest point of my life, to actually see him for who he was. Even when I turned my back on him, he never turned his back on me.. He’s saved from from so many things, over and over again. He took my faith from being doubtful and unsure, to knowing that I know against all odds and all that ppl may say, that he truly is , who he say he is. If u listen closely, you will hear him speaking.

      • JuliePurple

        Hey, BJ
        It’s totally cool that you’ve had such great experiences, and that they’ve worked out so well for you. But see, my thing is, I know the brain is a wondrous instrument whose capabilities we have not come close to fully understanding yet. How do we know that what some people call “mystical experiences” aren’t just some brain chemistry working to help us out? Like, you’d see (or perceive in some way) Jesus, while a Buddhist would see the Buddha or a Boddhisattva or something?
        I’ve had dreams that were so real to me that I thought events in them had really occurred. Like, I thought my husband had said something, and when I reminded him of it, he told me that he wished he had said it, but no, I had dreamed it. There have been other instances of my dreams seeming very real. So what I’m getting at is, how do you know your own brain didn’t manufacture the experiences? Again, I think it’s totally cool that you have something that works for you. And whether it was really Jesus, or just your brain helping out, it was a big help to you, and that’s the main thing.

      • bj

        Yes I see.. The experiences I’ve had, were nothing near the working of the brain. I don’t know if u believe in prophets today, but they very well exist. I’ve had prophets tell me things in the last few years that God said he would do to and thru me, and they very well have come to pass . some have taken months in not years, but they very well have happened. Even recently, an prophet sent me an message saying that God will bring and connect me with people of different thoughts and ideas, but not to allow that to push the ppl away, BC it will be his doing, and things will happen thru it. This aswell, is now coming to pass wow.. A lot of church goers give the world an bad portrait of who Jesus is. They judge the world unrightouesly, instead of love them. Before we believed and were once saved, we were also sinners in need of grace. I am commissioned to tell the Truth of the gospel, not to beat you down. I love you sister, and I know that God will make himself known to you. And remember, everyone who claims to be christian isn’t, so watch those who are quick to condemn you to hell.

        Luke 9:51-56 KJV
        And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem, [52] And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. [53] And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. [54] And when his disciples James and John saw this , they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? [55] But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. [56] For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them . And they went to another village.

      • JuliePurple

        Still, the events you described might have happened
        anyhow. It could have been good guesses on the part of the people telling you that.

        I have a request to make of you, for when you are talking with me. Please don’t use biblical passages to illustrate points. Use your own words. Because I don’t think the bible is a reliable source of information.
        Think of newspapers today. How accurate is the information in them? Even with the best of intentions, people don’t always get things right. I know I’ve had people interview me, then write up the interview, and when it’s published and I read it, I see things I never said! They got all wrong! And I know those interviewers
        were really trying to report accurately. Nobody had some agenda or was trying to prove anything to disbelievers. Did Jesus get to proofread what was said about him before it was published? Of course not. He died before any of it was written. And remember, he was presenting what were probably new concepts to those people. How likely was it that they understood him
        correctly? And don’t tell me it was “divinely inspired”. A lot of people make that claim and have completely different information from other people *also* making that claim. So, bearing in mind that the early writers *did* have an agenda and were trying to influence people, how accurate were their writings? I’m thinking, not very.

      • bj

        Thanks for your reply Julie.. However , it would be not only be very difficult to help you see the word, without using the word.. But also dangerous, but for the sake of Jesus, I will try. When I was aroundaround 5 or 6, riding with my dad in his pickup truck, we stopped at store got some candy. As we left I being to get tired, and laid on door. The last thing I remember was this sweet calm peaceful voice , which at the time I thought was my own thoughts said “put your hand in the door handle ( the truck was old fashion two door truck with big door handles ) and wrap arm around tight in case door opens.. I did. About 5 minutes later, my dad was making at sharp left turn at intersection right in front of my uncle house, and all I remember was waking up hanging out door. My dad was so drunk he didn’t realize, I was calling his name and he never heard me ( thanks is to Jesus that my heavenly father heard me ), and by the grace of God, my uncle and his friend was standing outside and flagged my dad to pull over. He dragged me for about 16 seconds before stopping. My legs were scrapped but that was all, and somehow my hand never slipped out the door handle, BC if so, i could have easily rolled und r the truck. ( looking back, I know it was the voice of the holy spirit)

      • bj

        And before anyone could ask, well why would an holy God allow that.., he allows that to teach us and show us his ways of communicating to us, and for other purposes that will benefit us in rhe future..and to show us what could happen if we don’t listen / obey. It took me 15 years to realize it was him speakingspeaking. Daniel would have never truely known the awesome power of God, Unless he had the experience in the lions den

      • noni

        Hey BJ, do you think a 5 or 6 year old boy or girl can remember events that happen in split seconds (16 in your story) after 15 years? Do you think a 5 or 6 year-old boy or girl has a belief system running in his/her brain thru reason? or brainwashing? You are watching too much fiction movies.

      • bj

        Hi Noni, first and foremost i want to compliment you for knowing that the event was around 15 years ago, 18 to be exact. Secondly , yes I do believe that “My God” , has power to bring all things back to my memory .. ( you should know that as bible confirms it, and you know it well, it just doesn’t know you :). ) Thirdly I rarely watch t.v., let alone fictional movies.. Thank you. And lastly, I want to make it known that your opinion is all well with my soul.. And no weapon you “form” against me, shall “prosper” for I am more than an conquer thru my savior Jesus Christ who strengthens me.. Amen.., amen.. Be blessed, and Have an great day :) !!!

      • JuliePurple

        I was impressed that Noni guessed your age, too! My thought is that maybe she got a clue from the abbreviations you use; aren’t they common in text messaging? And a lot of young people do a lot of text messaging. Or, could be Noni is just a lot more clever about people than I am. :-)

      • bj

        And yes, lol . I have an strong umption that Noni knows tons more, than she ‘s revealing.. I could go further, but I’ll stop there

      • JuliePurple

        Wow, BJ, what a scary experience! I’m glad you survived it! (And in such a cool way, too!) It very well may have been some sort of divine voice, but it also could have been your subconscious gleaning bits of information from the environment and presenting you with an exit strategy (so to speak :-) ) in a way you would react well to. Or it could have been something else entirely. That’s the thing: there’s no way to know. Actually, I kind of like the mystery.
        What a huge bummer, though, that your dad would drive like that, and with a little kid in the car, too. :-(

      • bj

        Lol thanks Julie, good to see ppl still care for one another. And yes that was way uncool to drive drunk, I thank God he’s cut back to 1 or 2 an day (considering he cpuld consume an 24 pack alone).. There’s been numerous times I should have been dead, but I give Jesus all the praise, for being on my side. God really loves you sis

      • noni

        bj

        Do you remember the following post you made lately “What I believe he means is when the word which is the Spirit of God and the very words God speak, was borned as Jesus in the flesh.. The Jesus has always been , and always will be” ? So, how come you said in another post “BEFORE JESUS CAME”. What do you mean by “before Jesus came”? It is a complete reversal of what you just said above “The Jesus has always been, and always will be”.

  • gooder1

    Matthew 19: “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

    Above Jesus is saying that a man will leave his “Mother & Father” to marry a woman himself, just as his father did. Jesus in this passage approaches it in a positive manner. St. Paul, in Romans 1, approaches the same teaching from the negative perspective. The teaching, though, is one and the same.

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