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Busted Halo® Cast
The Busted Halo Cast® is our weekly podcast that answers questions of faith ranging from the simple basics of the Catholic faith to complex dilemmas of everyday life. We also highlight a church to visit that other young adults have found welcoming and vital and preview next week's scripture readings.

Busted Halo’s Fr. Dave Dwyer, Fr. Steven Bell, and Barbara Wheeler-Bride co-host every week offering their faith-filled answers to your questions. You can call-in your questions to (917) 591 8476 or e-mail us at questionbox@bustedhalo.com

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July 8th, 2014
#410- Is it okay to take a break and consider your faith?
 
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podcast-#410 imageStruggling with what you believe? Does something feel “off” when you go to church? This week, Summer Intern Sean joins Fr. Steve and Barbara to talk about exploring your faith and discovering what you believe. Their recommendations include talking with a trusted spiritual advisor or friend, engaging with your faith questions, and checking out all of the resources that are available to you in the Catholic Church (including www.BustedHalo.com) and beyond! For starters, check out this article about different types of believers at www.BustedHalo.com. Coming Attractions: Gardening tips from Matthew. Church Search visits Tucson, Arizona, and St. Pious X parish.

 

Do you have a question of faith? Call 917-591-8476 and leave a voicemail with your question or e-mail us at questionbox@bustedhalo.com.

0:00 — Intro

7:45 — Question

23:20 — Coming Attractions



 
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Please note that the editorial staff reserves the right to not post comments it deems to be inappropriate and/or malicious in nature, as well as edit comments for length, clarity and fairness.
  • Kim

    Jun 28, 2014 11:45 PM by Miranda Leah – @MirandaLeahKRIS

    Local Priest Resigns Amid Inapropriate Behavior Allegations

    CORPUS CHRISTI – A local pastor is placed on leave, amid allegations of inappropriate conduct against a church worker or employee.

    Monsignor Michael Heras has been serving in the Corpus Christi area since 1993, making him a very well-known figure throughout the community.

    Is this Mike? Is this why he is so angry?

  • Mike

    I know Jesus took a break now and then, we know this by all the Jesus got into a boat and tried to get away from all of the people stories — though I do not think he consider your faith? ….

    if you are consider your faith as you put it, then that just says you are not really having any idea what faith in Jesus is in the first place. it is the obeying og his commandments.. that is not that hard, how would you lose your faith in Jesus if all you are doing is trying to obey every one of his commandments…..

    it like the jews had to oey all of the commandments of Moses but this time its less laws to obey.. so what is there to (re)concider in how you believe in Jesus?

    if you are doing that if you are not doing that then you just need to do that …

  • Mike

    if the church would not lie to its people about certin things like being an adopted child of God at baptisim for one, and other things then maybe not so many would wonder and get confused about what “faith” really is.

    • Bob

      The Church doesn’t lie to its people. The Church teaches the deposit of faith given to it by Christ through the Apostles. They taught that Baptism forgives sin and does enter us into Jesus’s Church. Read St. Peter’s and St. Paul’s writings and read the section on Baptism in the catechism to educate yourself. If you are an atheist try asking God if he does exist, would he let you know and give you faith.
      God Bless.

      • Mike

        hahaha that is your first impression of me huh? That I am an atheist, then tell me to go tell God to prove to me He is real and have God let me know and give me faith. that is your job not his.

        That is why God brought Jesus into this world to teach humans about God then told the humans to keep doing it. ie the great commission.

        just by baptism alone the Church says:

        1265 Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte “a new creature,” an adopted son of God, who has become a “partaker of the divine nature,”69 member of Christ and co-heir with him,70 and a temple of the Holy Spirit.71

        if you listen to Mass in what the Priest says every so often you will hear him asking God to send the Holy Spirit of Adoption on to us. now we have a question, if by the teaching of the church in what you just read, we are already adopted, therefore we do not need the holy spirit of adoption sent to us. contradiction is now present.

        as stated in 1265 CCC. Paul states in Romans. Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

        4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

        Did you noticed the use of the word, “MIGHT” not Shall or Will?

        460 CCC The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:78 “For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.

        Notice the use of the word, MIGHT, not shall of will become a son of God.

        that statement would not be there if we are already Adopted Children of God making us a son of God already at baptism. again contradiction.

        “79 “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.”80 “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”81

        Notice the use of the term MIGHT make men gods.

        do you conciser yourself God?

        if you cannot in all honestly know that you are god then you are not an adopted child of God.

        Jesus did, because he is a son of God.

        the evidence speaks for itself

      • gooder1

        As Jesus said, “Matt
        10:22 “he who endures to the end will be
        saved.”

      • Mike

        that has nothing to do with adoption, or what I just stated in getting adopted by God so that we are now real children of God. the ones that get to partake of Jesus’ divine nature and all that comes with it — the commandments of Jesus is NOT just one line, or one statement that Jesus made for others to quote and may think they can just live by that one statement and think they will go to heaven. two: you just missed the whole point of what I told that other person. it went right over your head. all you did was take what Jesus said out of context.

      • gooder1

        Mike Look up the following: Matt 28:19 Mark 16:16 John 3:3, 5, 22 Acts 22:16 Romans 5:5: Romans 6:3-4 1Cor. 6:11 Colossians 2:12-13 Gal. 3:27 2Cor. 5:17 Titus 3:5 1Peter 3:21 Rev 7:14 Ezechiel 36:25 Ephesians 5:25-26

        In those you’ll find all of the Church’s teachings: through baptism we are joined to the body of Christ, we are filled with the holy Spirit, our sins are forgiven, we become a new creation, our souls are regenerated, we are saved, we participate in the new circumcision, we are reborn from above, etc. But first and foremost we must believe: Mark 16:16.

      • gooder1

        Okay, I looked a little closer at your text, and see that you have concerns with the word “might” and that we become a son of God. In 2Peter 1:3 it says that we might become partakers of the divine nature. The sacrament of Baptism will indeed confer upon us all the Promises, but I must reiterate that we must first have Faith, or Believe. If we do not have Faith, the sacrament will not effect fully the promises of our Lord. Much depends upon how well we are disposed to receive the sacrament. When children receive Baptism, it is upon the Faith of the parents. The Church understands that if we even have an inkling of Faith, the Church at large will make up the difference. But if we do not have any Faith at all, then the sacrament might not have any immediate effect.

        As for being divine, when Jesus, who is God, came down to earth, he took on a human nature that is now joined to his divinity for all eternity. And when we receive Baptism, we are joined to the “human” Body of Christ. Consequently, we are joined to his divinity, as well, because they are inseparable. So in a sense we are partakers of the divine nature.

      • Mike

        If we do not have Faith, the sacrament will not effect fully the promises of our Lord.

        show me that in writing where the Church says that, because it voids what they said at Baptism you just get all of it, do you think a baby has this faith in Jesus when it does not even know its own name yet?

        the CCC clearly states

        1265 Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte “a new creature,” an adopted son of God, who has become a “partaker of the divine nature,”69 member of Christ and co-heir with him,70 and a temple of the Holy Spirit.71

        no where in there does it say anything about having to have faith in anything, it clearly states one just gets all of that at the moment of baptism.

        confer – grant or bestow (a title, degree, benefit, or right).

        then this is conferred to everyone that is baptized regardless of what type of Christianity they get baptized into or regardless of who baptizes them, ie a person on the street.

        but also makes the neophyte “a new creature,” an adopted son of God, who has become a “partaker of the divine nature,

        you are already a adopted son of God and a partaker in the divine nature member of Christ and co-heir with him. just by the act of baptism alone, no where does it state a claim that you have to have faith. the letter of the law.

      • gooder1

        Mike:

        The Church approaches everything from the positive perspective, not the negative. It is implied that you have Faith, if you are asking the Church for baptism. For example, if you baptize an unconscious person on their deathbed, without their consent, then it is done conditionally, with the assumption that they wanted it at some point in that person’s life. All the sacraments are done with the assumption that you wish to receive them, or would want them if you were conscious enough to ask for them.

        CCC 1226 From the very day of Pentecost the Church has celebrated and administered holy Baptism. Indeed St. Peter declares to the crowd astounded by his preaching: “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”26 The apostles and their collaborators offer Baptism to anyone who believed in Jesus: Jews, the God-fearing, pagans.27
        Always, Baptism is seen as connected with faith: “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household,” St. Paul declared to his jailer in Philippi. And the narrative continues, the jailer “was baptized at once, with all his family.”28

        The Church would probably not re-baptize a person who was baptized apart from acknowledging Faith in Jesus, but rather would just ask for a profession of Faith to fully activate the Baptism already received. That is my personal take on it. In other words, the more we cooperate with the Grace of God, the more we receive the full measure of it.

        And yes, anyone who is an atheist (earlier post) should shout out to Jesus that he or she wants to know Him and believe in Him, but needs help in doing so. Our Lord will answer that in a way that is obvious to the person asking for proof of His existence (from the heart, and not mockingly)

      • Mike

        one: I am not approaching anything from a negative perspective– but rather an Honest perspective.

        you just side tracked everything I just said about what that paragraph clearly states.

        and no there is no It implied or explicit of anything to do with having faith to get what the church says one gets at baptism.

        it clearly states.

        the CCC clearly states

        1265 Baptism not only purifies from all
        sins, but also makes the neophyte “a new creature,” an adopted son of God, who has become a “partaker of the divine nature,”69 member of Christ and co-heir with him,70 and a temple of the Holy Spirit.71

        where is their is it implied that one has to have faith of any kind about anything?

        it states Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also make the neophyte (a person who is new to a subject, skill, or belief. and a baby surely meets that definition)

        “a new creature,” an adopted son of God, who has become a “partaker of the divine nature,”69 member of Christ and co-heir with him,70 and a temple of the Holy Spirit.71.

        therefore when one is baptised they get forgiven of every sin, and too become a son of God, and a partaker of the divine nature (meaning you become god, because that is the divine nature of Jesus) and a temple of the Holy Spirit.71.

        just by the mere act of getting baptized, that is what that paragraph is stating. nothing more, and nothing less.

      • gooder1

        Mike: you have to read the entire section of the Catechism concerning Baptism. It is not the type of book you can just take a snippet from, and isolate it. Baptism is the major step that formally begins the Christian life. You’ll need to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, starting with paragraph 1213 and running through paragraph 1284:

        Here’s just one clip from it:
        “Christian Initiation
        1229 From the time of the apostles, becoming a Christian has been accomplished by a journey and initiation in several stages. This journey can be covered rapidly or slowly, but certain essential elements will always have to be present: proclamation of the Word, acceptance of the Gospel entailing conversion, profession of faith, Baptism itself, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, and admission to Eucharistic communion.”

        I understand where you are coming from, but I want to reiterate that the reception of the Sacrament of Baptism includes professing belief in Jesus, the Son of God. So if you are baptized prior to believing, the baptism, and the Promises associated with it, are not poured out on the person until the sacrament has been completed. So whether you believe and are baptized, or baptized and then believe, doesn’t matter, but only that both things need to occur before receiving the Baptismal gifts from God. I hope that helps.

        Anyway, please read the section on Baptism, and ask our Lord to help you see that the reception of his Love requires our part, as well (Matthew 7:7, Luke 6:38).

      • Mike

        just using that paragraph is not taking anything out of context. it stands on its own as it is a main statement about baptism in itself, what baptism does, what you get when you are baptized. as it states everything that transpires and what someone gets when they are baptized.

        it invalidates everything you told me. therefore it is either the truth or a lie. plan as that.

      • gooder1

        Mike the Promises associated with Baptism will indeed occur, but Baptism
        is not magic. To put it in simple language. We are born with a soul,
        but due to Original Sin the soul is like a balloon with no air in it (it suffers from a lack of grace); the soul resides in the person, but it is lifeless. What Baptism does is fill the soul up with
        grace (like a balloon being filled up with air); during Baptism a supernatural reality takes place, namely, the the Holy Spirit enters the person, breathes spiritual life into his/her soul, joins that person to the Body of Christ, forgives all sins committed prior to Baptism, etc. As a person, we might not feel this reality at first, but the more we ask Him to grow in our Faith, the more we receive. In other words, Baptism is a type of seeding of the soul, but we must tend that garden, and ask for God to help us grow in the Faith. All persons in heaven are full of grace, but some are only shot glasses full of grace, while others are oceans full of grace. The difference is how much capacity for grace we’ve asked for in our lives. And we can lose that life of grace through sin. As Peter says in his letter, (2Ptr 2:22) “a sow that is washed returns to the mud.” But back to the original question: In the Church, though, you cannot receive Baptism unless you ask for it, and make a promise to continue in the Faith. In other words, your intentions are both explicit, and implicit. During the Sacramental rite, either the person receiving Baptism, or the parents of that person, must make a profession of Faith. Once that is done a person can receive Baptism. But Baptism is not a guarantee of heaven. All can be lost through sin. BTW: the word “might” can also be understood as a proclamation. I myself understand it to mean both proclaiming Truth, but also encouragement to continue steadfastly in the Faith.

      • Mike

        I can see you are one that has a hard time accepting the
        truth when you see it. Where you one that did not always do your homework, perhaps even one that copied off other peoples papers so you wouldn’t have to figure it
        out for yourself?

        You need to take off your dancing shoes and remove you cap, for you have on the wrong shoes and cap.

        All you are doing is dancing around the truth, and thinking you are a teacher, and I am a student.

        By what you are doing with me is causing you to not even do what it is you keep telling me I have to do.

        That is a legal document, and within that document, that
        paragraph defines what actually takes place at the time of baptism and not afterwards, period. It states you get everything at the very moment of baptism, and not afterwards.

        I did not say it, someone else did. Look at all the words
        you have used trying to explain that lie away. It is the truth or a lie. It is a yes or no anything else is from Satan.

        You are one that is not a complete thinker, and have a hard time not only accepting the truth, but standing up for it too. Instead, you try to explain away a lie, instead of accepting the truth for what it is out of fear.

        What are you in fear of?

        Now let me pick apart what you have just told me and let me show you something.

        Gooder1

        “Mike the Promises associated with Baptism will indeed occur, but Baptism is not magic.”

        I never said it was magic, you’re the one that just used that word, “magic” not I.

        I just showed you what another or an entity of a company of persons said, not I. It just happens to be the work of people within the Church.

        Gooder1

        “To put it in simple language. We are born with a soul,
        but due to Original Sin the soul is like a balloon with no air in it (it suffers from a lack of grace); the soul resides in the person, but it is lifeless.”

        If by what you mean by saying the soul is lifeless, that it
        is dead, like a person is known to be dead, for what else could it mean? Then that is not true. If we take that statement, which you just made and analyze the hell out of it hopefully you will learn something. But to stay to the point of this argument I will leave it at that.

        It is alive and conscious just like “you” are at this very moment regardless if one is baptized or not. The soul is completely alive and is a conscious being it is just not consciously aware of itself as being a soul yet. The soul
        is a live at the same time you are and it is consciously aware of its surroundings.

        It is because it is so tightly integrated with your flesh it lives as you live, as one person joined together in a spiritual marriage of sorts making the two one. This is a mystery of God. It conforms to everything God is about,
        oneness. That is the short of it.

        Gooder1

        “What Baptism does is fill the soul up with grace (like a
        balloon being filled up with air); during Baptism a supernatural reality takes place, namely, the the Holy Spirit enters the person, breathes spiritual life into his/her soul, joins that person to the Body of Christ, forgives all sins committed prior to Baptism, etc.”

        One you did not finish your thought, making it an incomplete statement. You left out important information.

        Two:

        You just reaffirmed 1265 of the CCC that you are telling me, no that is not how it works. Then trying to explain it away by telling me it does all happen at once, as it states, now you are telling me it does. Making you
        one with Jesus, and God at the same time. A mystery of God.

        Quoting you again, “during Baptism a supernatural reality
        takes place, namely, the the Holy Spirit enters the person, breathes spiritual life into his/her soul, joins that person to the Body of Christ, forgives all sins committed prior to Baptism, etc.””

        This then will take place as well at the time and very
        moment of Baptism, just by the act of the Holy Spirit joining you to the body of Christ. You then become one with Jesus, and you will know that He is in you and the father is in Him.

        Now we have a bigger question? Does one that has just the Spirit of Jesus Christ in them also get everything else that article 1265 of the CCC states at baptism, as you are now reaffirming that it does in fact take place
        at baptism.

        You stated the soul is dead like a stillbirth baby that is
        still inside the womb of a woman. Then at baptism, the Holy Spirit supernaturally gives the soul life and joins that person to the body of Christ. Therefore, it raises the soul from the dead, and the soul cannot die period. It is eternal.

        Then they now have the spirit of Jesus Christ in them making them one with Jesus at baptism. For that is what it means when one receives the “Holy Spirit” that joins the
        person to the body of Christ.

        As you stated, “his/her soul, joins that person to the Body
        of Christ”. Therefore, this would then take place also at baptism? Article 1265 of the CCC “but also makes the neophyte “a new creature,” an adopted son of God, who has become a “partaker of the divine nature,”69
        member of Christ and co-heir with him,70 and a temple of the Holy Spirit.71”

        You and everyone that has been baptized becomes god exactly at the time of baptism. Therefore, they are co-heir with Jesus. Thus what ever is Jesus’ is yours, and what Jesus got is everything that is God the fathers has.

        Go to Romans 8, there is a lot going on within what Paul
        says. You really need to pay attention to what it is he is saying.

        “For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.[f] And by him we cry, “Abba,[g] Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we
        share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.”

        “Led by the Spirit of God are the children of God”

        Have you had this happen to you? If not then you are not a son of God, you are not god, and everything that
        article 1265 of the CCC states is a lie.

        Because it states that, you are god at the very moment of baptism. It does not state anything that it is that you
        keep adding to what it has already stated to be the truth, yet it is not.

        You are now contradicting yourself, again. Because you just stated that it does in fact happen at the time of baptism, then you try to explain it away again by you keeping on adding to what it is you are saying.

        Gooder1

        “As a person, we might not feel this reality at first, but
        the more we ask Him to grow in our Faith, the more we receive.”

        Define “Faith” for one.

        again in article 1256 of the CCC no where in there does it state having to do with, or having to have faith in order to get all that that article states one gets and what actually takes place at the very time of baptism.

        Two: you use the word “might” and not will or shall, the
        letter of the law. That statement using the word “might” shows that some actually feel the reality of becoming god and some do not at the time of baptism. You are now giving it over to partiality, meaning for some yes and for some no. God does not show partiality.

        Now you are trying to explain way what you just told me by telling me this. Instead of just accepting, the truth that article 1265 of the CCC is a lie.

        Gooder1

        “In other words, Baptism is a type of seeding of the soul,
        but we must tend that garden, and ask for God to help us grow in the Faith.”

        Again, define “faith”

        Gooder1

        “All persons in heaven are full of grace, but some are only shot glasses full of grace, while others are oceans full of grace. The difference is how much capacity for grace we’ve asked for in our lives.”

        You just contradicted yourself again. First, everyone in
        heaven is full of grace, and then you state no, only some of them are and the others are only shot glasses full of grace. Then you try to make me believe that is all depends on the persons capacity for grace as if everyone has a different size gas tank, yet it changes sizes all depending on how much we asked for in ones life.

        Asked for grace? That is a statement of not knowing or
        understanding God and grace. That is like telling me if I keep asking you for money you will give me more. Therefore, logic states I will have more.

        However, grace is not something you can ask for and expect to get it and be able to hold on to it saving it all up and keeping it with you forever and then take it with you into heaven.

        You have no understanding of the process of how to get grace from God. Nor what Grace really is, that too has turned into a generic word to be tossed around like the horny little boy that tells every girl he meets “I love you” expecting to get more sex.

        Grace is received by doing what is right in the eyes of God.

        Gooder1

        “And we can lose that life of grace through sin.”

        Now again you try to explain away what you have previously stated.

        As Peter says in his letter, (2Ptr 2:22) “a sow that is washed returns to the mud.”

        Gooder1

        “But back to the original question: In the Church, though,
        you cannot receive Baptism unless you ask for it, and make a promise to continue in the Faith. In other words, your intentions are both explicit, and implicit.”

        Explicit meaning “stated clearly and in detail, leaving no
        room for confusion or doubt.”

        Implicit means “implied though not plainly expressed.”

        It is one or the other, not both at the same time. Quoting your previous statement, “and make a promise to continue in the Faith” that is an Explicit, not both Explicit and implicit.

        it can never be both explicit and implicit at the same time, it is always one or the other, never at the same time. that too is a lie what you just told me.

        Gooder1

        “During the Sacramental rite, either the person receiving
        Baptism, or the parents of that person, must make a profession of Faith. Once that is done a person can receive Baptism. But Baptism is not a guarantee of
        heaven.” All can be lost through sin.

        Article 1265 of the CCC by what it states guarantees Heaven no matter what to everyone that is baptized.

        BTW: the word “might” can also be understood as a
        proclamation. I myself understand it to mean both proclaiming Truth, but also encouragement to continue steadfastly in the Faith.

        The word Might has no definition of any kind meaning it is a that it is you just told me. Go blow smoke up someone else ass, not mine. you lied again to me.

        Have you ever thought long enough on a topic to think maybe you should do your own homework and stop letting others do it for you? Too, learn how to read a dictionary while you’re at it.

        On and on you go to try to explain away what article 1265 of the CCC states, by reaffirming it then trying to explain it away again. You just keep talking in circles; dancing your way around the truth, that article 1265 of the CCC is a flat out lie.

      • gooder1

        Mike:
        Both the Bible and the Catholic Church teach that Believing in Jesus, the Son of God, followed by Baptism is the door to Christianity, but that growth in the Faith is an ongoing thing. Baptism is how we are born again, or born from above. It is the sacrament which effects the rebirth of the soul; it is how we are born again of water and the Spirit (see John 3:3). Through the Sacrament of Confirmation, however, (see Acts 19:5-6, Acts 8:17, 2Cor 1:21) we grow in the Faith, the Church is clear on that. So Baptism joins us to Christ, and Confirmation effects our spiritual growth.

        The Church also teaches that we can lose our salvation (see Rom 11:22). There are numerous other scriptures for that.

        And yes, not everyone in heaven has the same share of grace (see 1Co 15:42).

        All the Promises of our Lord are given with the assumption that we will continue in the Faith, giving our honest and best effort in this life. I don’t see how that is a tough one to get past.

        Qualification: And if a person receives baptism, believing in Jesus, the Son of God, then he/she will receive all the Promises associated with that sacrament. But if a person stands there and says to him/herself, I don’t believe in any of this stuff, then it is questionable whether God will immediately act in the Sacrament; yes the baptism will probably be valid, but until that person has a change of heart, and makes an effort to believe, the Holy Spirit will have a hard time working in that person. In Baptism the soul is seeded but must grow (read Mat 13:31 & 1Ptr 1:23 about seeds).

        And what is Faith? Well for the Christian it is first and foremost belief in Jesus Christ. But it is also a surrender to God for the Hope of eternal life, and to follow his Will.

        You mentioned several times that the Catechism states in absolute terms what happens in Baptism, and yes, those things can and will occur, but the Church also understands the fallen human nature of man, and that he can fall from grace, through sin, and that is what the post-baptismal Sacrament of Confession is for. It restores the soul to the state of grace (see John 20:22-23). So the life of Faith is an ongoing thing, not a one time thing. Faith is something we must pursue (see Phil 3:10 -14). So when the Church states things in absolute terms, it must be understood in the larger context.

        Original sin. Adam and Eve walked in the grace of God. They possessed animated souls, but when they fell from grace, they were cast from the garden, and could no longer could pass on what they did not have. Baptism restores the soul to the life of grace, the grace originally possessed by Adam and Eve before they lost it (see 1Cor 15:22 & 45).

        Anyway, I really don’t see what you are arguing about here. Why don’t you tell me whether you are an atheist, or a Christian, or something else. That way I can understand where you are coming from. God makes good on his Promises, but we also must do our part, or else we can separate ourselves from all he wants to give us (see Heb 6:4-6, 2Ptr 2:17-22).

      • Mike

        P { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }A:link { }

        If
        we were in a classroom setting and you handed that, any of what you
        have already told me in as a paper on the topic of article 1256 of
        the CCC. I’d give you a not do good grade on it then hand it back to
        you. Then you’d look at that grade thinking you got an A and
        wondering why you didn’t. Then you’d ask me why. I’d then ask you
        where did you get that information? Then you’d say from that “guy”
        over there. Where as I’d reply so you copied off someone else’s
        paper?

        Then
        I’d take your paper back and give you a worse grade then I already
        had, then hand it back to you, telling you do go do your own
        homework, and quit coping off other peoples papers, for that is
        called plagiarism.

        You
        need to know what an article is, and what it is used for.

        You
        need to know, the definitions of words.

        You
        need to know, words and their usages.

        You
        need to know, what it means by, the letter of the law.

        You
        need to know, what the differences are in the words, will, shall,
        may, might, could, can, should, and in, for the most part. That
        should be enough to get you started.

        Oh
        yes and you need to know how to dig for the truth, then call it for
        what it is, then stand in it, and live in his word.

        It
        seems if I go any further with this it will be me doing all of your
        homework and thinking for you. So again you are now cheating yourself
        of the truth. For what if I am wrong too? And what if you’re wrong
        too? But who really did your homework for you? Surly not you.

        That
        is why plagiarism can get you into trouble.

        John
        3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the
        kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

        That
        is a statement by which Jesus said, and it is a true statement. One
        that is born again ONLY gets to sees Heaven, period, not get into
        heaven. But no where in that statement does Jesus tell us how to get
        born again. That is anyone guess?

        Acts
        19:5-6

        On
        hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
        6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on
        them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

        The
        Holy Spirit came on them, not in them. Too you have to understand
        what God was doing during the time of Pentecost and with His spirit.

        Acts
        8:17

        Then
        Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy
        Spirit.

        There
        is states who ever they laid there hands on received the Holy Spirit.
        Not that the Holy Spirit came on them.

        There
        is a difference.

        Extra
        credit. How many Holy Spirits are there? Give me the scripture
        readings and the logic to back it up, because there is more then one
        Holy Spirit. And yes they are made mention of in the bible.

        2
        Cor 1:21 you have taken that out of context, that just perverts the
        truth in what it is saying.

        2
        Cor 1:21-22

        21 Now it is God who makes
        both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his
        seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a
        deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

        a
        seal of ownership is set on them, and his Spirit in there hearts, NOT
        all of them, nor a soul, but just the heart as a deposit, signifying
        a guarantee of what is to come.

        Even
        with using just them two lines we do not know what it is that is to
        come. This does not back up what you are telling me even.

        You
        are telling me that all that scripture you gave that I just coped and
        paste backs up this statement that you just made.

        what
        Jesus says in John 3:3 does not state nor confirm your statement.

        Baptism
        is how we are born again, or born from above. It is the sacrament
        which effects the rebirth of the soul; it is how we are born again of
        water and the Spirit (see John 3:3).

        John
        3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the
        kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

        that
        is just Jesus telling the reader no one can see the kingdom of heaven
        unless they are born again.

        No
        where in what Jesus says there backs up your statement.

        Through
        the Sacrament of Confirmation, however we grow in the Faith, the
        Church is clear on that.

        This
        too is wrong. If you go through the Sacrament of Confirmation all you
        are doing is putting in writing and word your promises to Follow
        Jesus. That is all. Freewill is in play here, there is no real
        guaranteeing from the participant that he or she will keep them
        promises. Therefore, the growing in faith does not, and will not
        occur just by the mere fact of promising to follow Jesus.

        “ So
        Baptism joins us to Christ, and Confirmation effects our spiritual
        growth.”

        Show
        me where Jesus says that Baptism Joins us to him? And Confirmation I
        just shot down.

        The
        Church also teaches that we can lose our salvation (see Rom 11:22).
        There are numerous other scriptures for that.

        Again
        you took it out of context. Using only one liners to try and back up
        what it is you are telling me, when one is using more then on line to
        complete his line of thought.

        Consider
        therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who
        fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his
        kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

        From
        that what you gave me to look up I am now confused. Thank you for
        confusing me. Cut off from what?

        No
        where in there does it say what I am being cut off of, or from.

        And
        yes, not everyone in heaven has the same share of grace (see 1Co
        15:42). again with the out of context

        So
        will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown
        is perishable, it is raised imperishable;

        all
        that is stating is the flesh in what happens to it when it is raised.
        It does not hold water to what you just told me.

        All
        the Promises of our Lord are given with the assumption that we will
        continue in the Faith, giving our honest and best effort in this
        life. I don’t see how that is a tough one to get past.

        Do
        you have any real understanding of what you just told me here?

        You
        just told me that the Lords promises have already been given to me,
        under someones assumptions that I will continue in the faith, faith
        of what I do not know because it is not stated here. Nor are the
        promises, that too can be anything.

        Qualification:
        And if a person receives baptism, believing in Jesus, the Son of God,
        then he/she will receive all the Promises associated with that
        sacrament. But if a person stands there and says to him/herself, I
        don’t believe in any of this stuff, then it is questionable whether
        God will immediately act in the Sacrament; yes the baptism will
        probably be valid, but until that person has a change of heart, and
        makes an effort to believe, the Holy Spirit will have a hard time
        working in that person. In Baptism the soul is seeded but must grow
        (read Mat 13:31 & 1Ptr 1:23 about seeds).

        that
        too is wrong.

        According
        to article 1256 of the CCC when a person receives baptism he or she
        gets this hands down.

        1265
        Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte
        “a new creature,” an adopted son of God, who has become a
        “partaker of the divine nature,”69 member of Christ and
        co-heir with him,70 and a temple of the Holy Spirit.71

        you
        are now god and a member of Christ and co-heir, and a temple of the
        Holy Spirit, but which one? Remember to do your extra credit.

        Article
        1256 of the CCC invalidates everything you are trying to tell me. And
        still with what you have presented to me in this entry too does not
        validate what you have told me so far.

        Article
        1256 of the CCC is an out right LIE!

      • gooder1

        Mike:

        Criticizing grammar has no place here. I could go through your sentences and find plenty of errors (which I have). So let’s put that aside.

        You are coming across as a legalist, and that is fine. At least I now know your position.

        John 3:3 needs to be placed in context of the whole chapter.

        John 3:3, 5, 22: “no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above … Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God… After this Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized.

        As far as copying someone else’s homework, I’d say that I do my own homework. You are accusing me of doing something I am not guilty of. As for the Bible, of course I will reference that. As for the CCC, I am Catholic, so of course I will reference that. But I make my own arguments, based upon my own research, all done within the context of Catholic Teaching.

        As for losing one’s salvation after receiving Baptism, again you must read all within the context of the chapter.

        Romans 11:17 If some of the branches [i.e., the Jews] have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot [i.e., a gentile], have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root [i.e., Judaism], 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

        The context of that last sentence is very clear.

        Acts
        19:5-6 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

        Above we see both Baptism, and Confirmation (laying on of hands). And the second action (Confirmation) brought additional gifts to the newly baptized.

        As for the Confirmation quote, 2Cor 1:22, the word “anointed” is a reference of anointing with oil, part of the Confirmation rite.

        As for the Holy Spirit, the only Spirit I really care about is the Third Person of the Trinity. Who is God. In Acts 5, Peter proclaimed that lying to the Holy Spirit, is lying to God: “3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

        And actually, I did a very in depth study on the nature of God. And there are some really significant things to be found in the NT. And in the end, I have to agree with the Catholic Church’s teaching on the Trinity.

      • Mike

        P { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }

        There is no grammar checking whatsoever going on here. Yes I am looking at it from a legal stance, as it
        pertains to law.

        Your ending statement, “I have to agree with the Catholic Church’s teaching on the Trinity.” that sounds like something a convert would say. Are you a convert?

        On the topic of entering heaven, you forgot one more requirement one needs to meet in order to get into
        heaven. But that is not the topic of discussion here, that is side tracking.

        Losing ones salvation too is side tracking, it is not the topic of discussion here.

        “As for the Holy Spirit, the only Spirit I really care about is
        the Third Person of the Trinity. Who is God.”

        So what you are saying there is that the spirit of Jesus is not God?

        Do you agree that Jesus is God made flesh?

        Paul also talks of a different Holy Spirit, and too there is one more that is made mention of that Jesus speaks of.

        One needs logic to see and find them, then figure it out, it goes along that same line of thought that gave the term Holy Trinity.

        Therefore there is more then one Holy Spirit.

        The trick is trying to figure out which Holy Spirit that person is talking about when they say HOLY SPIRIT.
        :)

        that too is not the topic of discussion, per-say.

        The topic of discussion is article 1265 of the CCC which is Catholic Teachings on the basics truths.

        Therefore when ever you are dealing with anything that tries to explain what Jesus said, and Scripture it has to be looked at on a legal stance, as it pertains to law. Because
        they are taking from the law that Jesus passed out, His Commandments.

        This is why you need to have a good understanding of this, which is not checking ones grammar, but understanding what it is that someone else is saying, as well as when you make statements.

        You need to know what an article is, and what it is used for.

        You need to know, the definitions of words.

        You need to know, words and their usages.

        You need to know, what it means by, the letter of the law.

        You need to know, what the differences are in the words, will, shall, may, might, could, can, should, and in, for the most part.

        You stated this is what one receives if one is baptized.

        Qualification: And if a person receives baptism, believing in Jesus, the Son of God, then he/she will receive
        all the Promises associated with that sacrament.

        you are almost affirming what 1265 of the CCC says, but you are adding to what 1265 of the CCC states, then you discount it.

        But if a person stands there and says to him/herself, I don’t believe in any of this stuff, then it is questionable whether God will immediately act in the Sacrament; yes the baptism will probably be valid, but until that person has a change of heart, and makes an effort to believe, the Holy Spirit will have a hard time working in that person. In Baptism the soul is seeded but must grow (read Mat 13:31 & 1Ptr 1:23 about seeds).

        you used the word “probably” meaning you have no idea whatsoever if that baptism will be valid. once baptized in the holy trinity always baptized in the holy trinity. THe Church does not make another get re-baptised if they already have been baptized in the Holy Trinity, even from a protestant church. They just need the paper work to prove it. so the “Church” can assure that it took place.

        Article 1265 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) is stating that what you stated is a lie. No where does 1265 state you have to have faith, or believe in Jesus. it just plainly states that when one gets baptized they automatically get all of this stuff up front, period. no more no less, nothing has been added to nor has anything been taken away from what the Church is stating here. it is what one gets at the time of baptism.

        1265 of the CCC
        Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte “a new creature,” an adopted son of God, who has become a “partaker of the divine nature,”69 member of Christ and co-heir with him,70 and a temple of the Holy Spirit.71

        One of them has to be wrong, what you said, or what the CCC said, and one right, or they both are wrong. If both of them are wrong then it needs to be looked into further to find the truth.

        I am stating that Article 1265 of the CCC is a lie.

      • gooder1

        Mike

        I not sure I understand why you continue to isolate CCC 1265 apart from the entire section. As far as the teaching there goes, if all is in order, then yes, all the promises associated with Baptism will be imparted upon the soul. However, if all is not in order, then we have to stop and consider how our Lord views these things. In other words, the Catholic Church cannot state a so-called “truth,” if it were to violate Our Lord’s Teachings in the Gospels. For example, in Mark 16:16, Jesus says, “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” That verse clearly states that belief or Faith, is necessary in the Plan of Salvation. So the Church would never proclaim a doctrine which would violate these clear words from our Lord.

        As for whether or not a Baptism is valid, well let me use today’s Mass readings to make the point:

        Jesus “spoke to them at length in parables, saying:
        “A sower went out to sow.
        And as he sowed, some seed fell on the path,
        and birds came and ate it up.
        Some fell on rocky ground, where it had little soil.
        It sprang up at once because the soil was not deep,
        and when the sun rose it was scorched,
        and it withered for lack of roots.
        Some seed fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked it.
        But some seed fell on rich soil, and produced fruit,
        a hundred or sixty or thirtyfold.
        Whoever has ears ought to hear.”

        As with most Scripture, these parables have many meanings, and in this case, the seed pertains to the “Word.” In NT Scripture there are three objective meanings for it: In the NT, the “Word” can mean Jesus Himself (John 1:1; Rev 19:13); it can mean the written Word, as well as the spoken Word (John 15:3). But getting back to the parable. When we are joined to Christ in Baptism (Romans 6:3-4), Who is the ultimate Word, we must be like the seed that fell on rich soil, otherwise we will shrivel and and die. So just because someone is baptized, doesn’t mean that his baptism will have its full effect on him unless he is properly disposed to receive it. So our baptism will either be for our glory or our shame.

        Here, let’s look at another parable:

        The Vine and the Branches

        John 15 “I [Jesus] am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and
        withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.”

        So our job is to “remain in Jesus” (John 15:4). And bear much fruit (verse 5); if we do not, then we will be cut off, thrown in the fire, and burned (verse 6). That is likely a reference to hell.

        You are welcome to proclaim CCC 1265 as a lie, but in all honesty, if you were to read the entire section on Baptism, paragraphs 1215 – 1284, you’d see that you are isolating it to a strict interpretation, as if it were a stand alone paragraph. But the truth is, it is written much like the Bible itself, in that middle eastern format. If you read the Bible, after a while you’ll notice that in one section you can read about one aspect of the Faith as if it were the only thing that mattered; then you can go to another section, and see where a totally different Truth is being focused upon, that means almost the opposite, and being explored as if IT were the only thing that mattered. That is how they wrote, and we should keep that in mind when reading Scripture. That is why it is so dangerous to isolate passages like Romans 10:9, and act as if that is all you need to do. No, we must look at the whole of NT scripture, and understand it in its totality, because it is ALL necessary for salvation.

        I’ll end with the words of St Peter:

        “20 If they [Christians] have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it [corruption of the world] and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the
        sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”” 2Peter 2:20-22

      • Mike

        todays readings had nothing to do with being Baptized. it had to do with believing in Jesus. they are two completely separate issues, even though they go together.

        you need to understand what Article 1265 of the CCC is really stating. I think you do, but what you do not understand that is does not take place at the time of baptism as article 1265 of the CCC states it does. therefore article 1265 of the CCC is a lie.

        You are still trying to see it as the truth, that is why you are having such a hard time validating it with the truth. nothing you show me will work, you should at least see that by now. The truth cannot validate a lie unless it is seen as a lie.

        then the only truth that can validate that lie is by telling the truth of it, that it is a lie.

        one does not personally have to believe in Jesus in order to get baptized or for that baptism to be valid.

        if you are baptized it is valid, no matter what, as long as you use water, and say the words, “I baptized you in the name of the Father, and in the name of the Son, and in the name of the Holy Spirit”.

        how to use the water, you can pour it on there head, like most priest do, to just lay them in a pool of water, called full submersion.

        you or that person is now baptized, it is legal and valid, it can never be taken away nor does it ever have to be done again.

        if you baptize a infant, it cannot and does not have any faith in Jesus whatsoever. because it is just too young to even know its own name. yet it is a valid baptism. it will never have to be re-baptized again.

        that infant does not get any of what article 1265 of the CCC states one gets. except the original sin part, period.

        if it did then the Church would not tell everyone, the parents and God parents to promise god to raise it in the faith of Jesus, because if it did get everything that article 1265 of the CCC states one gets then there would no longer be any need for anyone to do so with that infant, or anyone else for that matter.

        it is because article 1265 of the CCC states that one does in fact receive all of what it says one get at the moment of baptism and they do not makes it a lie, period.

      • gooder1

        Mike

        When a baby is baptized, it is done so because until the infant reaches the age of reason, the parents speak for the child, so the parents Faith is imparted to the child.

        And we can agree or disagree about whether a questionable baptism is valid, or not. But Baptism doesn’t guarantee heaven. I’m sure many people who have been validly baptized are now in hell.

        Heb 6:4-6

        “As for those people who were once brought into the light [baptized], and tasted the gift from heaven [i.e., the Eucharist], and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away, it is impossible for them to be renewed a second time.”

        Matthew 7: 19-23
        “Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits. “Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’”

        And you are correct about the forms of Baptism, The Didache (AD 90) is clear that a wide range of valid expressions (of Baptism) have been in place since the First Century:

        A CHURCH MANUAL
        Of Baptism
        7. The procedure for baptizing is as follows. After repeating all that has been said, immerse in running water “In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost”. If no running water is available, immerse in ordinary water. This should be cold if possible; otherwise warm. If neither is practicable, then pour water three times on the head “In the Name
        of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost”. Both baptizer and baptized ought to fast before the baptism, as well as any others who can do so; but the candidate himself should be told to keep a fast for a day
        or two beforehand. (Didache 7)

      • Mike

        you said quote

        “Mike

        When a baby is baptized, it is done so because until the
        infant reaches the age of reason, the parents speak for the child, so the parents Faith is imparted to the child.

        And we can agree or disagree about whether a questionable baptism is valid, or not. But Baptism doesn’t guarantee heaven. I’m sure many people who have been
        validly baptized are now in hell.

        what is your point?

        I do not know why you tols me something I already know.

        my point is that 1265 of the CCC is a lie. if you got everything that it states at the time it states you do, at the very same time you get baptized, that person would be god and go to heaven.

        Baptism is valid, a baptism does not save anyone, period.

        I know more then you think.

        what are you really trying to say. put it in to your own words.

      • gooder1

        I have been putting it in my own words. But let me state it this way; the sacramental life is as follows:

        When God calls us, we need to respond. He gives us the initial grace to believe.

        Once at that point we need to bring that faith to the next stage, and that is Baptism. Once Baptism is received, we are joined to the body of Christ, our sins are forgiven, and we are now in the state of grace. That grace is the free gift of salvation. The only way we can lose that salvation is through sin. If we do not sin, we will not be judged at the moment of death.

        Should we sin, and fall from grace, and our salvation is in jeopardy, and our Baptism has been violated, then we need to be restored to that baptismal state through the Sacrament of Confession.

        So to answer your question, baptism saves us. But we can lose that salvation through personal sin. Baptism is not a meaningless sacrament. It is the normal way that God saves us.

      • Mike

        gooder1 quotes
        But Baptism doesn’t guarantee heaven.
        “So to answer your question, baptism saves us.”

        they are one in the same.

        being saved means you going to heaven, because you have been saved from your sins. in other words you are no longer a sinner, but a saint, and only saints go to heaven. and a saint is god.

        can you tell me honestly that you are god?

        this does not take place at the time of baptism whereas 1265 of the CCC says it does. therefore it is a LIE. furthermore, then too the statement baptism does not save us , nor guarantee heaven is a true statement.

      • gooder1

        Mike

        That is how salvation has been understood since the First Century:

        Titus 3:5 “He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.”

        Just as God cleansed the earth with the great Flood, he cleanses us now through baptism

        1 Peter 3:21 “Baptism,
        which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from
        the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the
        resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.”

        Baptism effectively joins our souls to heaven while still on this earth. This adoption is permanent as long as we remain faithful. And once joined to Christ in Baptism, he gives us the power to remain faithful, an grow in our Faith:

        2Peter 1: 3 “His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. 5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins. 10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

      • Mike

        gooder1 YOU HAVE NO UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT A ADOPTED CHILD OF GOD REALLY IS.

        until you do you will be forever trying to show me theology I already know. it is everything you are showing me that is to get you to be an ADOPTED CHILD OF GOD.

        this is what 1265 of the CCC states that you already are an adopted child of God at the very moment of baptism, when in fact you are not, therefore it is a LIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      • gooder1

        Mike:

        I think you miss the whole point. Of course it is the Holy Spirit Who effects the baptismal promises. Who but God could do that? But what Peter and Paul are saying in the Scriptures is that it IS the Holy Spirit Who acts within the rite of Baptism when it is done properly, because our Lord energized the sacrament when He was baptized by John the Baptist in the Jordan. Do you think the Holy Spirit would have descended like a dove upon Jesus if John wasn’t pouring water over Jesus’ head? Or that God the Father would have spoken at that moment if our Lord wasn’t being baptized at the time? Of course not. Here, let’s have a look at that scene:

        Matthew 3:11-17

        11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” 13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to he Jordan to be baptized by John. 14 But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” 15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented. 16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

        In this scene we see John saying that our Lord’s baptism would have the action of the Holy Spirit in it–and fire–which means the capability to change. I see this scene as a typical example of how Jesus would energize an action of the Church, much like he did with the Eucharist at the Last Supper. In other words, once Jesus participated in something, or declared something, it would from that point forward have the power of God the Holy Spirit in it.

        So when the Church now baptizes, the Holy Spirit will respond to the rite being performed, and carry out the supernatural actions that our Lord promised would accompany the rite. But we must be sure that the rite is being performed correctly, or the Holy Spirit might not effect the Sacrament in a perfect way.

        I hope that clears things up.

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