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Our readers asked:

What exactly is the difference between Catholic and Lutheran belief in communion? They sound pretty alike to me.

Fr. Joe Answers:

You are correct in sensing that there is more unity than difference in the way Catholics and Lutherans understand and celebrate communion. In fact, since the Second Vatican Council there has been a “coming together” of these different Christian Churches with respect to communion. The Catholic Eucharist (Mass) is now celebrated in the language of the local community rather than in Latin. The communal celebration of the Mass is much preferred to the private celebration by a priest that was common before Vatican II. And Catholics have restored the ancient practice of communion under the forms of both bread and wine.

In dialogues between Lutheran and Catholic theologians in 1968, Lutherans agreed that the celebration of the Eucharist involves a sacrifice of praise and self-offering that unites the believer with the sacrifice of Christ. At the same time, Catholics joined Lutherans in affirming that the sacrifice of the cross was a unique, one-time event that is not “repeated” in the celebration of the Eucharist. Both Lutherans and Catholics affirmed that in the Eucharist Christ is “present wholly and entirely, in his body and blood, under the signs of bread and wine.” This “presence” of Christ in the Eucharist is more than a commemoration; it is an “effective sign” that “communicates what it promises” (“Building Unity,” Ecumenical Series IV, editors Burges and Gros: Paulist Press, 1989).

There remain some differences between Catholics and Lutherans with respect to communion. Some are matters of vocabulary. Each church forms a kind of culture with its own vocabulary and terminology. For example, Lutherans will refer to communion as “The Lord’s Supper” while Catholics prefer “Eucharist” or “Mass.” A shared vocabulary helps a group feel comfortable and at home. Sometimes differences in vocabulary make it seem that there are differences in meaning where none actually exist. It’s very important to learn and attempt to understand the vocabulary of another church in order to have a meaningful conversation.

True differences in belief and practice also remain. While both Lutherans and Catholics will bring communion from the church to members of the community who are sick, Catholics maintain the practice of reserving the communion bread in the tabernacle, which becomes a place of prayer and devotion. Lutherans do not hold the same belief that the presence of Christ continues in the bread and wine after the time and place of the celebration of the Eucharist.

Lutherans would also question the Catholic practice of offering Mass for the intentions of those who have died. While Lutherans believe in the value of offering prayers for those who have died, they would have reservations regarding Catholic belief that the Eucharist is effective as an “atoning sacrifice” for those who have died.

Catholics hold to the term “transubstantiation” to describe the reality of Christ’s presence in the Eucharist. They borrow terms from the philosophy of Aristotle to express the belief that during the Eucharist the substance of bread and wine is changed into the substance of the body and blood of Christ, while the accidents of bread and wine (what they look, feel and taste like) remain the same as they were before. Lutherans prefer to avoid the term transubstantiation and use other terms to describe their belief in the full reality of Christ’s presence.

Since I am not Lutheran, I may not have done full justice to the Lutheran position on the Eucharist, and would welcome any corrections from those who know more. However, I feel certain that there is much more agreement between Catholics and Lutherans on this matter than we often realize. I thank you for your most interesting question and hope this has helped to provide an answer.

 
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The Author : Fr. Joe
Fr. Joe Scott, CSP, has been a campus minister, pastor and editor as a Paulist priest.
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Please note that the editorial staff reserves the right to not post comments it deems to be inappropriate and/or malicious in nature, as well as edit comments for length, clarity and fairness.
  • katydid13

    Traditional Lutheran theology would use the phrase “consubstantiation” to describe Christ’s presence during communion. Meaning that Christ’s body and blood are “in, with, and under” the bread and wine. How people perceive this varies widely.

  • DiscipleofPoopoohead

    The All Supreme Overlord Poopoohead is the real lord and Savior.

  • Sindy

    Just to be clear, Jesus had brothers and sisters. Matthew 12:46, Luke
    8:19, and Mark 3:31. The Bible tells us that Jesus had four brothers:
    James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas (Matthew 13:55). His brothers go on to
    the festival while Jesus stays behind. In Acts 1:14, His brothers and
    mother are described as praying with the disciples. Galatians 1:19
    mentions that James was Jesus’ brother. The most natural conclusion of
    these passages is to interpret that Jesus had actual blood
    half-siblings (hlaf-siblings because Joseph was not Jesus’ real father, but Mary was his real mother and that of his brothers)

    • gooder1

      Sindy, compare the following with your introductory statement: “Among
      them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the
      mother of Zebedee’s sons.” Matthew 27:56. Also look look
      at “…James, the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Jude, the
      brother of James” Acts 1:13. When looking at the totality of NT
      Scripture, one must conclude that Jesus’ brothers and sisters, were part
      of his extended family, or close relatives.

      • Sindy

        “Matthew 1
        24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
        25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.”
        So explain this passage to me then.

      • gooder1

        Hi Sindy,

        When reading Scripture, it has to be understood in the culture within which it was written, and it all should fit together in a unified way. So if we read one verse, the interpretation should makes sense with the whole of Scripture. As for Mary having no other children, as the Catholic Church teaches, then it should make sense in all cases. In John 19:26 Jesus gives his mother to John the Apostle. But that would violate Jewish law if Jesus had any other brothers–or step brothers–as they would be bound to care for their mother according to the Law. So it would be odd for Jesus to do that if he had other siblings. Also we should look to the Old Testament where God establishes a principle: In Ezechiel 43 & 44, he beholds a vision given to him by God the Father, and the important part reads as follows:

        43:1 “Then the man brought me to the gate facing east, 2 and I saw the glory of the God of Israel coming from the east. His voice was like the roar of rushing waters, and the land was radiant with his glory. 3 The vision I saw was like the vision I had seen when he came to destroy the city and like the visions I had seen by the Kebar River, and I fell facedown. 4 The glory of the Lord entered the temple through the gate facing east. 5 Then the Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court, and the glory of the Lord filled the temple … 44:1 Then the man brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, the one facing east, and it was shut. 2 The Lord said to me, “This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered through it.”

        Now the Early Church Fathers used to refer to “Mary” as the “Eastern Gate,” (in reference to this prophetic vision), because the Lord Jesus entered into the world by it, and it would therefore remain shut. So Joseph would respect this, and refrain from intercourse with Mary because God Almighty entered the world through the womb of Mary.

        As for Matthew 1:24, the connotation in English would have us immediately thinking that Mary had intercourse with Joseph after she gave birth to Jesus, but in the culture of the time, it merely meant that Jesus was conceived strictly by the Power of the Holy Spirit, and that Joseph played no role in it. Here, let me show you a few other verses where the word “until” is used:

        2Sam6:23 “Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child until the day of her death.” Does that mean she gave birth on her deathbed?
        1Cor 15:25 “For Christ must reign until he humbles all his enemies beneath his feet.” We know that Christ will reign for all eternity.
        1Tim 6:11-14 11But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness … 14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ” We know that we are not to stop following this commandment even after he returns.
        There are many more like this. As for whether Joseph had children before marrying Mary, well it is a possibility, but it is certainly odd that they were not with Mary at the foot of the cross. We can leave that possibility open, but several of the names of at least two of Jesus’ “brothers” were children of Mary Cleopas. It all can be very confusing, but the simple thing is that there was no word for cousin in the Jewish tongue of the time, so “brother” took on a broad meaning.

      • Sindy

        And don’t say that “not till” means never, because then the piece just reads he never slept with her while she was pregnant. It does not indicate they never ever consumated their marriage.

  • James Sanchez

    Mike you speak sound words but in the manner that you speak them offends more than helps you cause. Surely Jesus would not treat a sinner in such manner of disrespecting them. “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Adhere to the law and you will save. It is not about wrong or right when you are going to save someone.
    The Pharisees saw this, and asked his disciples, How comes it that your master eats with publicans and sinners? 12 Jesus heard it, and said, It is not those who are in health that have need of the physician, it is those who are sick. 13 Go
    home and find out what the words mean, It is mercy that wins favour
    with me, not sacrifice. I have come to call sinners, not the just. Be that doctor that you spoke of in your analogy. Jesus used it as well.

    • Mike

      James Jesus never held back but spoke the truth , telling the truth is love, otherwise it is a lie that is not love — accept it or not freewill

      • James Sanchez

        Mike, you are not God you cannot go around telling people they will go to Heaven or Hell period. That is God’s right you may think you are doing the right thing, just as others, but to start taking away the right of God is just as much a sin as some one not following God. Sin is Sin in God’s eyes, Humans make levels of sin but to God you are as filthy as anyone here on Earth. You do not belong to a club of righteousness and you are not better than anyone else. The club I belong to (The Catholic Church) acknowledges our sins and realize only through Jesus Christ’s sacrifice can we obtain absolution by repenting. Jesus Christ spoke the truth but he did not act so righteous. (The Lutheran Cookie) this is rude. My son is Protestant and is rude when he talks about my religion. He goes to his church more often than I do and constantly tries to tell me how wrong I am in what I believe. Just by these actions I would not want to hear him out. I can play devils advocate in anyone of his beliefs and he can not handle it were he has stopped. I know and you know that to obtain heaven is not that easy. 13 Make your way in by the narrow gate. It is
        a broad gate and a wide road that leads on to perdition, and those who
        go in that way are many indeed; 14 but how small is the gate, how narrow the road that leads on to life, and how few there are that find it! 15 Be on your guard against false prophets, men who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but are ravenous wolves within. 16 You will know them by the fruit they yield. Can grapes be plucked from briers, or figs from thistles? 17 So, indeed, any sound tree will bear good fruit, while any tree that is withered will bear fruit that is worthless
        Here is the verse you speak of but you did not take the beginning part that describes the analogy of how difficult heaven is to obtain. It is not believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins and that is the end of it, or be Catholic an that will save you. No today if I died I would probably go to hell, I have mortal sin on me nobody id going to tell me don’t worry come over here and I will take care of it. Why because God made the Bible easy to interpret because he would be a cruel God if everything was complicated. Martin Luther had a valid reason to question the Church and he never once intended to split. He never started a Church right after all that transpired because he went into hiding after be excommunicated. He was a going to be a lawyer before priesthood and had a sound argument because of corruption over indulgences. He took confession very serious and was often in a session quite long. So there are reasons why there are differences.

      • JuliePurple

        James, we have different views about the specifics of religion, but I admire your speaking on behalf of respect. Well done.

      • Mike

        there is only one true religion for there is only one true God.

      • James Sanchez

        Thanks, just because we have different views does not give anyone the right to be rude to one another especially when one claims to be Christian. We have the right (free will) to agree to disagree. If you were to ask me a question about my religion I would answer it to the best of my ability. I would give you the why with specific scripture or official information why. If questioned further or I simply do not know I will try to find out for both our sakes. When I speak of anything about my religion I am a representative. Communication is the best way to understand each other, but we are all created by God and therefor loved by him and he would not be pleased if I was rude to you for any reason, even if you were rude to me.

      • LutherCatholic

        Mike, you are mistaken about the Roman Catholic doctrine of the priesthood and so your entire argument crumbles. “Once a priest, always a priest.” This has been the doctrine for centuries. Pope John Paul II made it quite clear that an excommunicated priest still maintains his sacramental character. Even a defrocked priest maintains this sacramental character. You attack Luther for leaving the church, but he didn’t leave, he was excommunicated. Regardless about whether he left or was excommunicated, according to Canon Law, he still maintained his priestly character and all sacraments administered by him and the others priests who joined him (in leaving or being excommunicated) are indeed valid.

        It is extremely offensive when you use terms like ‘Lutheran Cookie,’ to refer to the Sacrament of the Eucharist. Calling it “fake” is also offensive. This is Christ’s Body and Blood that we are talking about, so please show respect. Whether or not you personally like it, there have been and continue to be dialogues between Catholics and Lutherans. The respect shown by the theologians of these dialogues has helped the two churches work through real and perceived differences to find that there is far more common ground than difference. Our beliefs about the Eucharist are very similar and many historical differences have proven to be semantics rather than real differences.

        In October, Pope Francis met with leaders of the Lutheran World Federation, saying, “Catholics and Lutherans can ask forgiveness for the harm they have caused one another and for their offenses committed in the sight of God. Together we can rejoice in the longing for unity which the Lord has awakened in our hearts, and which makes us look with hope to the future.”

        The final line of the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue on the Eucharist state, “We therefore prayerfully ask our fellow Lutherans and Catholics to examine their consciences and root out many ways of thinking, speaking and acting, both individually and as churches, which have obscured their unity in Christ on these as on many other matters.” October 1, 1967

      • Mike

        show me where I said that someone is specify going to hell and I will show you where you did tell me that I am specify going to hell.

      • Richard Smith

        Mike, I’m neither Lutheran Nor Catholic… I’m a Bible Believer, Christian… I don’t follow man nor “traditions”… I follow God.

        For one, Following Roman Catholic Church will send you to Hell… I’m sorry but Scripture speaks… Unless you repent and change and Leave the satanic cult of the Catholic Church… Revelation 2: and Revelation 17 speaks of her… Mystery Babylon is the Catholic Church my friend… Believe it or not, up to you… 2 Timothy 2:15… God Bless

      • gooder1

        Hi Guest:
        Why would you call the Catholic Church the Mystery Babylon? It sounds like you’ve spent more time reading anti-catholic literature, rather than the Catechism. As for infant baptism, well baptism replaces circumcision as was taught by St. Paul in Colossians:

        Colossians 2:11:
        “In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not administered by hand, by stripping off the carnal body, with the circumcision of Christ. You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.”

        And as you must be aware that the Jews baptized 8 day old infants. And just like the Jewish parents of old, the mother and father speak for their children today, until the child achieves the age of reason.

        If anything, you should probably be questioning adult baptism, as most Jews were circumcised as infants.

  • Mike

    anyone that is baptized can recieve the Lutheran cookie and they do it every two weeks not every “MASS” if that is what they call it. if you recive it in a person at your home they tell you that you are a sinner and when you die you will get what you deserve, then make that person repeat it back. it is the words of death they have to say before they get to eat that “poisoned cookie”

    • Jeff Simon

      Thank you for explaining the technical differences between customary worship traditions in the poisonous language of your hatred. I am certain that Jesus would despair that he was tormented and sacrificed on the cross so that people like you could carry such bitterness in their hearts over such petty details. Religion seems pointless when it hardens the heart in such a manner. Perhaps one day as some Muslim is sawing off your head and raping your wife you will reflect upon what aspects of Christianity share in common rather than the trivial details which cause them to differ.

      • Mike

        I must of hit a tender spot, didn’t I?

        I do not believe Jesus would despair one little bit over the truth I told about the Lutheran false belief system that they now poison the minds of others with along with everybody else that is termed Protestant. If you are seeking the truth then you got it from me. Therefore Jesus would be proud of me.

        This is the truth, this is what a Lutheran pastor had someone I know say, you are a sinner and when you die you will get what you deserve, then make that person repeat it back.

        If you cannot except the truth that sinners go to hell. Then you do not understand what that pastor of this Lutheran belief system leads people in the wrong direction is saying to that person as well as everyone else. To paraphrase it. You are a sinner, you are going to hell. Accept it. Now repeat it, then you can have this piece of bread and a sip of wine. Hatred? NO, righteous indignation!

        Would you not be upset if you knew someone that went to a doctor that is suppose to help that person only for that doctor tell them too bad for you there is nothing I can do for you, just accept the fact you’re going to die, and everybody that goes sees that same doctor gets the same treatment, they all die in the end. When you know for a fact that the doctor down the street can help save them.

        All the similarities that the Lutheran Church has with the Catholic Church are only the ones that Luther took with him without permission to set up a church of his own, getting rid of what he didn’t like and changing theology to better fit his agenda.

        Jesus professed the truth and died because he believed in and told the truth. As one person said, a dead vine can produce no fruit. The word Protestant does not have a ‘D’ in it.

        It is pronounced pro-test-ant. In other words protesting against the original and only true church that Luther left taking with him what he wanted without permission and changing the truth.

        Adding a lie to it. Then it just got worse afterwards with the
        reformation to where now “Christians” worship God how they see
        fit and not how God told them to.

        As far as hatred what you just said is you not living a Christianity as you should your own self.

        “Religion seems pointless when it hardens the heart in such a manner. Perhaps one day, as some Muslim is sawing off your head and raping your wife, you will reflect upon which aspects of Christianity are shared in common rather than the trivial details which cause them to differ.”

        I will know that if she really believed in Jesus the way God wants you to then she will go to heaven, and that man that killed her still has a chance to repent of his sins and get real religion into his system. So he too can go to heaven. As there is only ONE real belief system in how to get into heaven, period. The rest of them are lies and only end up in death in the end, ie HELL.

        That is why what you just said here, “Christianity are shared in common rather than the trivial details which cause them to differ.” is a misconception of reality. That is a backwards thought.

        When you go buy a car do you not look for the differences in the two cars to pick the better car, so that you can be sure that it will take you where you want to go?

        The same goes for Religion. There is only ONE true Religion that will get you to where you want to go, HEAVEN, because there is only ONE GOD.

  • James Sanchez

    You are absolutely correct that it will not change their outcome and the
    will make it to heaven. However, praying for them will shorten the time
    they stay there. The intercession of prayer and asking for Christ’s/God’s
    help is all over the Bible one example would be the centurion who
    stated he was not worthy but was asking for help for his servant. His
    illness duration was changed by the centurion interceded for his
    servant. Faith is direct correlation with prayer because many of the
    outcomes you may not see.

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  • Joseph Godleski

    i am a member of a conservative lutheran church and i agree that their are many differences between catholics and lutherans i was raised in a independent old catnholic church so i retain many of the beliefs of my old catholic up bringing like prays to the saints and the virgin mary but i do not hold to prays for dead love one or holding services for them because i do not believe that prays for the dead change the outcome of where one spends eternity it is faith through grace that saves not by works least any man boast the old catholic church teaches the ancient catholic fqith

    • guest

      well said joseph

    • Lewis Crise

      Mary and Joseph had sex and bore other children after the birth of Jesus. Be not deceived.

      • Robert Simoneit

        I’d love if you could show me where you know that Mary and Joseph had children.

      • Mike

        it is in the bible with a little common sense and a mind of your own you’ll find it

      • James Sanchez

        Mike please I’d like to find this because if you are refering to Mathew 13:55 I could call you brother and the people I am associated with. Brother/Brethren needs to be looked up in the dictionary if this is the case.

      • Mike

        like I said little mr. nit picker and a believer of what ever someone that wears a funny hat says, and does not use his own brain properly the way God wants you to use it, so Satan is using you to come after me because I am telling the truth. and it contradicts to what you think is the absolute truth. Satan is a tricky little bastard.

      • JuliePurple

        Mike, I think James is asking you to provide a specific reference. Is that correct, James?

      • Mike

        are you not a Pagan? Yes or No.

      • JuliePurple

        Well, two things about that.

        1) I fail to see how that is in the least bit relevant,
        but I’ll give you an answer anyhow, since I’m such a nice person. :-)

        Now, remember that the word “Pagan” means different things to different people, so for the sake of clarity, I looked it up in the World English Dictionary, and got:
        ” member of a group professing a polytheistic religion or any religion other than Christianity, Judaism, or Islam”.
        So no, I am not that.

        and 2) that sort of non sequitur presented in such a way
        (i.e., abrupt, demanding) sounds rather like the words of a bully. Just sayin’.

        And a bit of trivia for you: in the Japanese language,
        when you ask a negative question, such as the one above: “are you NOT a Pagan?” would get the answer “yes”, meaning “I am not a Pagan”, or “no”, meaning, “Yes, I am a Pagan.” Since I learned that, I usually try to remember to phrase my questions in a positive way.

        I know you asked for a “yes” or “no”, but it wasn’t that simple. :-)

      • gooder1

        Actually nowhere in the NT does it say that Mary had other children with Joseph. There are mentions of the brothers of Jesus, which could have been his cousins, or relatives, since it was common to refer to extended
        family as brothers and sisters, since there was no word for those relations in the common tongue of Aramaic, or Hebrew. But we must not overlook the Protevangelium of James, chapter 8, which says that Joseph was an old man when he married Mary, protesting to the synagogue priest after he was chosen for Mary, saying, “I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl. I
        am afraid lest I become a laughing-stock to the sons of lsrael. And the priest said to Joseph: Fear the Lord thy God, and remember what the Lord did to Dathan, and Abiram, and Korah; (3) how the earth opened, and
        they were swallowed up on account of their contradiction. And now fear, O Joseph, lest the same things happen in thy house. And Joseph was afraid, and took her into his keeping “

      • James Sanchez

        Thank you for a more thorough explanation. However in my experience once someone is with the idea Jesus had brothers and sisters it is hard to clarify the error of understanding.

      • gooder1

        You are correct, James. The bible was written within a particular culture, and we need to keep that in mind when interpreting it. The brothers and sisters of Jesus were likely either his cousins, or his step brother & sisters from Joseph’s earlier marriage (his wife apparently had died). But to say that they are Mary’s other children seems to violate her questioning to the angel Gabriel, for when Gabriel told her she would conceive, Mary 34 “said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?” (Luke 1),. That would be an odd thing to say to the angel if Mary had not made a vow of virginity to God, because at the time she was “27 betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph”. And betrothal would mean that sex was likely in the near future. Due to the nature of that exchange with the Angel, we must conclude that either the Protevangelium of James is correct, and that Joseph was an older man with children of his own, or that Joseph and Mary had BOTH made promises of virginity to God, and that the brothers and sisters are our Lord’s cousins, and/or kinfolk, (and) likely the children of Mary Clopas.

      • Mike

        Let your ‘Yes’ mean ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No’ mean ‘No.’ Anything more is from the evil one. Matthew (new Testament Bible)

      • JuliePurple

        I understand that it can be difficult to appreciate the grammar of other languages. Suffice to say that different languages have different rules of expression. How about this: rephrase your question so that it is positive. That way you won’t beconfused.

      • JuliePurple

        I think I must state what to me is obvious, and that is that of course we are corresponding in English, not in Japanese. But as is the case with so many other things, seeing different ways of doing things sheds light on what we often take for granted. In this case, before I studied Japanese, I didn’t even think about how ambiguous it could be to state a question as a negative.
        That is one of the reasons why I find the busted halo site so fascinating. There are so many different ways of seeing the world. And what is (for lack of a better term) considered correct is often largely a matter of habit simple lack of knowing another way. And how wonderful it is when a person, learning of a different point of view, actually stops and thinks about it and applies logic to the situation, rather than simply reacting blindly.

      • Mike

        … Let your ‘Yes’ mean ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No’ mean ‘No.’ Anything more is from the evil one. Matthew (new Testament Bible)

      • JuliePurple

        Mike, honey, “yes” does mean “yes”, and “no” does mean “no”. You just have to understand the context. As for the “evil one”, that’s just silly. And repeating the same thing over and over is silly, too. I can see that you’d want to make some sort of response, but at least have the courtesy to give it a little thought rather than simply mindlessly repeating the same thing.
        I understand that it can be hard to wrap your head around the concept, but just really think about it and you’ll get it. It’s not complex, really.
        “Evil one”. Good grief. Such silliness.

      • Mike

        Let your ‘Yes’ mean ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No’ mean ‘No.’ Anything more is from the evil one. Matthew (new Testament Bible)

        is your brain so small as not to understand even that ? it is only 17 words that form that sentence, and God gave you a brain bigger then that even. So, what is your real problem?

        think about it. GOD gave you a brain, use it to your advantage, not Satan’s advantage.

      • JuliePurple

        Thus saith Magister Laeviculus.

      • Mike

        Let your ‘Yes’ mean ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No’ mean ‘No.’ Anything more is from the evil one. Matthew (new Testament Bible)

      • James Sanchez

        Yes that is correct, trying to state anything without a valid argument to back up what you state, especially what was just state about Joseph and Mary is strictly an opinion

      • JuliePurple

        Exactly! Opinions without proof are, at the very least, hard to justify.

      • Sindy

        Just to be clear, Jesus had brothers and sisters. Matthew 12:46, Luke
        8:19, and Mark 3:31. The Bible tells us that Jesus had four brothers:
        James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas (Matthew 13:55). His brothers go on to
        the festival while Jesus stays behind. In Acts 1:14, His brothers and
        mother are described as praying with the disciples. Galatians 1:19
        mentions that James was Jesus’ brother. The most natural conclusion of
        these passages is to interpret that Jesus had actual blood
        half-siblings (hlaf-siblings because Joseph was not Jesus’ real father, but Mary was his real mother and that of his brothers).

      • Robert Simoneit

        If you look at the Greek word used for “brother” to say that they are blood related is a bit of a jump. The word can certainly be used as a sibling, blood brother but it’s also used in Genesis to describe the relationship between Abram and Lot. Abram is Lot’s Uncle not his brother. You can see this in Genesis 14.

        You can’t just assume they are related because of the word brother. Even nowadays the word brother can be used to describe a closer relationship than a friendship. I call my cousin brother and even my friends at college brothers as well.

        Also I would like to point out, even in the passages you cited, Jesus uses the same word ‘Adephoi’ [Greek for brothers] saying whomever does the Will of God is my Brother. Mark 3:35. Luke 8:21 Jesus says, “but he said to them, ‘My mother and my brethren are those who hear the word of God and do it. ”

        Also in your comment you say Joseph is not Jesus father. This is true only biologically. Joseph was the Father figure of the family. Saint Joseph is recognized as a very important Saint in the Catholic Church. So much so Joseph is the patron of the universal church, several dioceses, and social justice issues. Why is he recognized with this much prestige? I mean he never even says anything in the Bible. Joseph was a man of action, he did everything the Lord had commanded him to do, without question. Anyway, sorry about that St. Joseph is important for me, had to get that out.

        You ended your comment with Mary having other children. This is something the Catholic Church has always fought against. Even the early Christians recognized Mary as “Ever-Virgin” which means she was a virgin before, during, and even after the birth of Jesus. Many holy and saintly men and women agree. The early bishops, the ones who organized the Bible and decided which writings were accurate defended this. The ancient prayers were written and spoke of Mary as “theotokos” which translates into “god-bearer” or Mother of God. also the Holy Virgin, if the ancient people ones who lived shortly after Jesus believed Mary was a Virgin and still had other children at the time clearly they didn’t understand childbirth and sex. OR they recognized the miracle of Jesus’ conception and knew she had no other children.

      • Sindy

        Why would the writer of the text refer to Mary and Jesus’s brothers praying with the disciples? Why not refer to everyone as brothers then? Anyhow, I was not disrespecting Joseph, he wanted to break the engagement but didn’t and then did everything God told him to do, which shows real faith. And I’m not disrespecting MAry either, but she was just a woman. And it seems that you guys tend to deify her, she is and was never holy. Nowhere in the bible does it refer to her as holy or everlasting virgin. Reckon the biblical writers would have mentioned that somewhere. And then there is the issue of you guys actually praying to Mary, so she can intercede for you with God. What’s that about?

      • Robert Simoneit

        Now let’s look at some reasons to believe in Mary’s perpetual virginity. Among the many we could examine, we will briefly consider three:

        1. In Luke 1:34, when Mary was told by the angel Gabriel that she was chosen to be the Mother of the Messiah, she asked the question, literally translated from the Greek, “How shall this be since I know not man?” This question makes no sense unless Mary had a vow of virginity.

        When we consider that Mary and Joseph were already “espoused,” according to verse 27 of this same chapter, we understand Mary and Joseph already have what would be akin to a ratified marriage in the New Covenant. They were married. That would mean Joseph would have had the right to the marriage bed. Normally, after the espousal the husband would go off and prepare a home for his new bride and then come and receive her into his home where the union would be consummated. This is precisely why Joseph intended to “divorce her quietly” (Mt 1:19) when he later discovered she was pregnant.

        This background is significant because a newly married woman would not ask the question “How shall this be?” She would know—unless, of course, that woman had taken a vow of virginity. Mary believed the message, but wanted to know how this was going to be accomplished. This indicates she was not planning on the normal course of events for her future with Joseph.

        2. In John 19:26, Jesus gave his Mother to the care of John even though by law the next eldest sibling would have the responsibility to care for her. It is unthinkable that Jesus would take his Mother away from his family in disobedience to the law.

        Some claim Jesus did this because his brothers and sisters were not there. They had left him. Thus, Jesus committed his Mother to John, who was faithful and present at the foot of the cross. This claim betrays a very low and unbiblical Christology. As John tells us, Jesus “knew all men” (cf. Jn 2:25). If James were his uterine brother, Jesus would have known he would be faithful along with his “brother” Jude. The fact is Jesus had no brothers and sisters, so he had the responsibility, on a human level, to take care of his Mother.

        3. Mary is depicted as the spouse of the Holy Spirit in Scripture. In Luke 1:34, when Mary asks the angel how she will conceive a child, the angel responds: “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.”

        This is nuptial language hearkening back to Ruth 3:8, where Ruth said to Boaz “spread your skirt over me” when she revealed to him his duty to marry her according to the law of Deuteronomy 25. When Mary became pregnant, Joseph would have been required to divorce her because she would then belong to another (see Dt 24:1-4; Jer 3:1). But when Joseph found out that “the other” was the Holy Spirit, the idea of his having conjugal relations with Mary was not a consideration.

        An obvious question remains: Why did St. Joseph then “take [Mary] his wife” according to Matthew 1:24 if she belonged to the Holy Spirit?

        The Holy Spirit is Mary’s spouse, but Joseph was her spouse and protector on this earth for at least two obvious reasons. First, as Matthew points out in his genealogy in chapter 1, Joseph was in line to be a successor of David as King of Israel. Thus, if Jesus was to be the true “son of David” and king of Israel (see 2 Sm 7:14, Heb 1:5, Rv 19:16, 22:16), he needed to be the son of Joseph. As the only son of Joseph, even though adopted, he would have been in line for the throne.

        Also, in a culture that did not take too kindly to espoused women getting pregnant by someone other than their spouse, Mary would have been in mortal danger. So Joseph became Mary’s earthly spouse and protector as well as the protector of the child Jesus.

        As for why I pray to Mary to intercede for us, I think the Mother of our Lord is probably closer to Jesus who can give us all the blessings of the Father. I think Mary might have an easier time receiving these blessings from her son and passing them on. Mary is the only human to have stayed with Jesus through everything. She held him in her womb for 9 months, that’s an incredible thought. She held Jesus in her womb. She was in charge of raising Jesus [who emptied himself and became man, Philipians 2:7]

      • Sindy

        Matthew 13:54-57 (NKJV) reads, “When He had come to His own country, He taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished and said, ‘Where did this Man get this wisdom and these mighty works? Is this not the carpenter’s Son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas? And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?’ So they were offended at Him. But Jesus said to them, ‘A prophet is not without honor except in his own country and in his own house.’ Now He did not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief.It is easy to take a word and argue about a word, but take the context and it is clear that Jesus had brothers and sisters.

      • Sindy

        “While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. Then one said to Him, ‘Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.’ But He answered and said to the one who told Him, ‘Who is My mother and who are My brothers?’ And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, ‘Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother
        And here Jesus was not denying he had brothers or sisters, but merely that he had spiritual family and physical family(brothers and sisters)

      • Robert Simoneit

        Matthew 13:55-56: Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brethren James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? And are not all of his sisters with us?
        Matthew 1:24-25: And Joseph rising up from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and took unto him his wife. And he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn (Gk. prototokon) son: and he called his name Jesus. (Douay-Rheims)
        A surface reading of these passages seems problematic. If Jesus had “brothers” and “sisters,” would not Mary have had other children? If Jesus was Mary’s “firstborn,” would there not be at least a second-born? And if “he knew her not till,” did he not then “know her” at some point? We’ll begin with Matthew 13:55-56.

        Oh, Brother!

        First, we must understand that the term brother has a wide semantic range in Scripture. It can mean a uterine brother, an extended relative, or even a spiritual brother. In Genesis 13:8 and 14:12, we read of one example of brother being used to describe an extended relationship: Abraham and Lot. Though they were actually uncle and nephew, they called one another “brother.” Moreover, in the New Testament, Jesus told us to call one another “brothers” in Matthew 23:8. The passage obviously does not mean to suggest that all Christians have the same physical mother.

        Second, if we examine more closely the example of James, one of these four “brothers of the Lord” mentioned in Matthew 13:55, we discover him to be a cousin or some other relative of Jesus rather than a uterine brother. For example, Galatians 1:18-19 informs us: “Then after three years I [Paul] went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and remained with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother.”

        Notice, the “James” of whom Paul was speaking was both a “brother of the Lord” and an “apostle.” There are two apostles named James among the 12. The first James is revealed to be a “son of Zebedee.” He most likely would not be the “James” referred to because according to Acts 12:1-2 he was martyred very early on. Even if it was him, his father was named Zebedee, not Joseph.

        Paul more likely is referring to the second James who was an apostle, according to Luke 6:15-16. This James is revealed to have a father named Alphaeus, not Joseph. Thus, James the apostle and Jesus were not uterine brothers. Easy enough. Some will argue, however, that this “James” was not an apostle or that he was not one of the original 12. Though this is a possibility—others in the New Testament, such as Barnabas in Acts 14, are referred to as “apostles” in a looser sense—the argument from Scripture is weak. When Paul wrote about going “up to Jerusalem” to see Peter, he was writing about an event that occurred many years earlier, shortly after he had converted. He was basically going up to the apostles to receive approval lest he “should be running or had run in vain.” It would be more likely he would have here been speaking about “apostles” (proper), or “the twelve.”

    • Logan Rieck

      Praying for the dead in Purgatory doesn’t change the outcome of their eternal fate, those in Purgatory will undoubtedly go to Heaven it is not possible for one in Purgatory to go to Hell.

      The infallibility of the Pontiff of Rome and the Immaculate Conception were both accepted teachings before they were defined. Simply because an Ecumenical Council had taken place and defined them does not mean they hadn’t existed before.

      God bless.

    • Dawn

      Horrible thing to say about any religion. It truly defines the type of person you are. Would not want to be in your church.

  • Dorothy

    This seems to be the most civilized discussion board I found, and the most centered on areas of tension between two groups where it should not exist.
    I was brought up within the Presbyterian church, within a Presbyterian/Methodist marriage. My childhood, especially the teen years, tested that faith severely. Married a Catholic (hard not to in Arizona, 1970′s). Priest did not show for final counseling session; later learned he was abusing altar boys and was sent away to ‘rehabilitate’. Yeah, right….Robert Trupia; this can be found on Google. He was not punished for years; he was PROMOTED. This really lessened what guilt feelings remained about steering my children toward the Lutheran church when their faith was wavering within the RC church. ELCA Lutheran, which is an important distinction. They had friends there, from school, and it was a good move. My daughter married recently; she and her spouse teach Sunday school, and have for several years. I can’t make the other ‘child’ a 200 pound teenager, go to church, but we have productive discussions at times that I would regard as ‘teachable moments.’ His comment to me recently was “Every week, the Message is the same!” Yes, Son, it is, and one day you will draw immense comfort in the unchanging love found in the Gospel… For myself, I have a husband who attends Mass on weekends, 4 or 5 different times and locations, and plays guitar. 28 years of support for his Navy career means I have developed strength of my own, and can think for myself (with God’s help). When my kids could not drive, I was transporting them to the ELCA church, and often staying for the service, yet still dashing back to the RC church for Mass, where I was in choir and on the list of reliable cantors. Messages from the RC pulpit became dull as dishwater because of hammering home political persuasion…so I drifted. It is not far to drift; these churches are less than a mile apart, distance-wise. It has taken YEARS for the husband to think that maybe the kids and I are not hell-bound…
    Within the last 2 years, in addition to Sunday ELCA service on Sunday, I began attending just the Spanish Mass on Saturday nights, which my husband leads. The Holy Spirit is definitely present for me during this time, even though I can’t understand the homily 100%—I sing in the small choir (seldom more than 5 other people!) I also hit that tambourine as appropriate; the previous priest liked ‘joyful noise’. I have woven myself inextricably into the ELCA congregation: choir, quilt making, community dinner once a week, choir music, and spirit-led music compositions independent of choir…I see myself as having not burned any bridges; on the contrary, I utilize the bridge on a regular basis. The ELCA congregation owns wilderness property that needed clearing of trees, which my husband, RC men and ELCA men together have done, providing firewood to those who are in need. The RC church had a priest for 12 years who was beloved by about 50% of the congregation, and either merely tolerated or actively disliked by the other half. I stopped taking communion with the RC church at some point because I didn’t want that priest (or myself, for that matter) to have to defend it…he had enough on his plate. I liked the man, and whenever people groused about him, I said the priest who arrived 12 years ago was not the same one of Today: he has grown as a person, and did his best, including taking on that Spanish Mass when he never thought that would become an issue in his career, based upon Location. That priest moved on; it was Time—he hopes to retire in this area. So: when the New priest distributes communion to the Spanish Mass choir, it is very obvious when the last person in a small group does not partake. He priest gave me quizzical looks the first few weeks, and for some reason I am not as content as before to be the Choir’s ‘bump on a log’. Nor does crossing arms across chest every single week seem right, deep in my soul. Yet I still have no desire to cause a single problem for the priest, who is off to such a good start with everyone I speak to. I summarized my ‘faith journey’ in a letter, to explain the lack of RC communion participation, and then spoke directly to the priest soon thereafter. All I am after is a comfortable ‘meeting of the minds’, realizing what he can offer may be limited by the fact that he has to answer about some matters both to God and ‘supervisors’. He said he’d speak with me a week from now, same time, same station, which means he’s giving he matter serious thought, and may well have to confer with someone. His willingness to do that means enough that whatever he decides is OK by me; at least it’s ‘out in the open’ vs. being a source of anxiety for me. Perhaps this has been part of the small pebble that creates the pearl in the oyster; in any event, Time will tell. Long Post; Sorry… “it’s Complicated.”

    • Dorothy

      Me again. I am not surprised: being utterly honest means I do not really ‘qualify’ to receive communion within the RC church whilst also receiving it from ELCA. Yet he didn’t come right out and say so; he offered either a blessing at communion time, or a prayer and a blessing after Mass, if that is easier or better. It is probably the best he can offer, so that is OK. At least he will understand what’s what with me. Even so, considering Martin Luther was a Catholic and the two churches are more alike than different, especially in regards to how we view communion, it is, emotionally, still a hard truth to take. It may be also that a priest, who loves Catholicism enough to sacrifice for it, can’t fathom anyone leaving only halfway, or existing in more than one ‘comfort zone.’ Perhaps he thinks if I feel uncomfortable with the status quo, I will return 100%. I experienced spiritual growth and benefit from both houses of worship. If you put a frog in a pot of water, and turn on the heat, the saying goes, the frog won’t hop out; it will adjust to the rising temperature and not leap out. Maybe I am that frog…although Wings of an Eagle sounds far more appealing.

      • Dorothy

        Vatican Radio has a website. Within that website, there is an article and an audio clip concerning a joint document from the Lutheran-Roman Catholic International Commission on Unity. It addresses JOINT responsibility for the division of the Western Church in the 16th century, and healing. The document is called “From Conflict to Communion’ and can be read and/or printed online, or a sturdy copy can be bought via Barnes and Noble and other sources. Anyone who prefers harmony to animosity can read it for themselves. I bought two copies.

    • Dean

      I really started to understand your feelings but…. “200 pound teenager” really? ‘Our’ lord created this teenager, are you mocking his creation??

      • Dorothy

        He’s also very tall. Why wouid I mock my own son?

    • Mike

      Satan will always prey on the ones he knows are going in the right direction to try and get them to sin so he too can try to have them, for the rest of them he already has them, so he does not bother them as much to make them sin, or keep them in sin for they are already in enough sin not to go to Heaven on there own. They don’t need Satan’s help.

  • Paul

    On a non-related note, I think there should be a faster route for adults interested in the Catholic faith who are coming from a very similar Christian denomination like Lutheranism or Anglicanism. Where I went through RCIA, it was 7 months, and basically it felt like I was sitting in 8th grade confirmation all over again. Not that RCIA wasn’t a good experience, but it seems strange that a lifelong Lutheran or Anglican has to go through the same catechesis as a former Jew, Muslim, or atheist. Frankly, the Catholic Church can ill afford to dissuade willing people from joining her flock.

  • Paul

    I was raised Lutheran (ELCA) and came to the Catholic faith in my young adult life (not long ago). I was astounded by many of the liturgical similarities (our church actually did call it “Eucharist” rather than “Lord’s Supper”. The sad thing, however, is when I invite my family to accompany me to Mass, it’s awkward when they’re unable to partake in communion, given they believe in the real presence of Christ, just like us Catholics. It seems like the differences are a matter of semantics, and that our principles surrounding the Eucharist are the same.

    • Mike

      “was astounded by many of the liturgical similarities” the liturgical similarities are because Luther was a Catholic Priest that left the Church removed what he didn’t like and took what he did like without permission, or authority from the Church he left, then set up his own church to better fit his self satisfaction. everything simularity that one sees in all the other Protesting Churches are because they took it from the Church that they are either saying are worshiping Satan, and if they really believed that then why are they taking from a church that they believe to be worshiping Satan and using it there church that they say is worshiping Jesus? That makes no since to me whatsoever.

      the other people say that the Catholic Church is a lie, therefore, then again, why do they take parts of what the Catholic Church is doing and incorporate it into what they are doing, when they say what the Catholic Church is doing is wrong. two wrongs do not make a right. that is backwards thinking at work.

      they do just about everything the Catholic Church is doing, in there deeds that is saying they agree what the Catholic’s are doing is right, but they do not want to lose what they already have, pride in others believing in them, and following them. so they do not admit what it is they are doing is wrong and just become Catholic. because they’d just lose everything they have already gained. What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul?

  • Nathan

    Having been a Lutheran all my life (son of a pastor), I wish to state very clearly that we do not see any value whatsoever in praying *for* the dead – they are dead, and nothing can change whatever faith they did or did not have while living. If they are saved, they are saved by God’s grace through their faith in Christ Jesus their savior. No one can believe for anyone else, nor is it possible for any of us to “buy off” the sins of those who have died or to expect that they can come to saving faith after death. We do believe in praying for those who are still alive, and especially remember in our prayers the family, friends, loved ones of those who died, that they may be helped in their grief (and as needed, come to saving faith prior to their own death).

    I wish Fr. Joe would fix his statement “While Lutherans believe in the value of offering prayers for those who have died…” as it mis-represents Lutheran beliefs.

    • LutherCatholic

      The Apology to the Augsburg Confession states, “Now, as regards the adversaries’ citing the Fathers concerning the offering for the dead, we know that the ancients speak of prayer for the dead, which we do not prohibit; but we disapprove of the application ex opere operato of the Lord’s Supper on behalf of the dead.” Prayer for the dead are not forbidden and are practiced, though not commonly.

    • Alex976

      Also, God and therefore the hearing of our prayers are not bound by time. Time is a physical characteristic of this world only, and I doubt that praying for someone before they die or after they die in this world can make any difference to their validity in the spiritual realm of the Kingdom.

      • Mike

        misconception of time, Purgatory has a time limit. Common sense tells you that. because Purgatory is not eternal punishment if is temporal punishment. meaning temporary, therefore it has a time attached to it.

    • James Sanchez

      Just to clarify a few things. If a person does not believe in Christ and dies refusing Christ, will be very hard to obtain Heaven. However, those who believe and die that wind up in purgatory, which chances are is everyone, believed in Christ or they would not be there to begin with. Praying for them is the same as praying for a living person. It is a belief Catholic have called a communion of saints.

      • Mike

        not hard to obtain Heaven they will NOT go to Heaven. Jesus said that not I.

      • James Sanchez

        Mike refuting Christ while knowing of the truth and hearing his word you will go to hell. However, a person not knowing of Christ and dying without the sacrament of Baptism will probably obtain Heaven. “There are many dwelling-places in my Father’s house; otherwise, should I
        have said to you, I am going away to prepare a home for you? 3 And
        though I do go away, to prepare you a home, I am coming back; and then I
        will take you to myself, so that you too may be where I am. 4 And now you know where it is I am going; and you know the way there.” The key is many rooms, I hope you believe in a just God because a child that has died without the sacrament of Baptism would be dammed to Hell. In addition, ignorance is not an valid reason to commit sin. You shall have no other gods before me. God knows your heart so those on the trend of, since I don’t know i am OK think again. Correct me if you feel I am wrong.

      • Mike

        You seem to be one to seek the truth,in all things I do hope, for this is what God wants. For God is seeking them to worship Him in Truth and Spirit.

        You stated probably obtain Heaven, then used Scripture of what Jesus said to see if it backed it up.

        You said I am going to hell for refuting Christ you are mistaken, I am going to hell for a different reason.

        But that is quite alright for even God can make a mistake, after all we are created in His Image, and
        Likeness. Therefore even God too can make a mistake, because man does.

        The LORD regretted making human beings on the earth (Gen.) indicating a mistake on God’s part. The lesson that man can learn from God’s and his mistake is, dealing with ones mistake, learning from it, then
        trying to do better next time.

        Just like a man that is building a house. While he is building this house he has it almost done. Then he
        puts in a few 2×4 crooked mistakenly. Instead of completely tearing down the house, he just gets rid of the crooked timbers that were put in, then goes from there.

        As it was man that first separated himself from God, by the sin in the Garden of eden, God could have completely separated himself from man, by just getting rid of mankind completely.

        Instead of God doing that He kept the best parts of his project then worked with what he had left. God found only one timber in the house he was building on earth, only one person was worthy of him, as God found favor in Noah. But, because God is merciful he allowed Noah’s Family salvation too. But the salvation of not dying from this world. Instead to repopulate it.

        It is through Noah that God shows us that one is to just stop doing what you are doing, then recess the situation, and take what good is left then learned from your mistake, then go from there and try better next time. But not always in that order. As God, took what was left then recessed while getting rid of the bad. Ie the great deluged. Then he tries to do better the next
        time, with the descends of Noah, and his family.

        Though having learned from his mistake, he too has a better Idea already planed but, decides to give mankind a second chance before he uses this better idea.

        Whereas Adam was taken out of the world then placed into the Garden of Eden, then God made him a woman, using his rib to fashion her around.

        The world gets repopulated, this time God picks the Hebrew Nation to be His, and to hell with the rest of
        them?

        God works with the Hebrews, and they keep falling down, so God picks them back up and again, and tries to help them out again, and they get up only to fall down again, again and again, this keeps taking place. So finally God just gets fed up with the Hebrews then turns them over to there own sin, in the fashion of binding them in the chains of there sins by making them
        “slaves of sin” by having the Egyptians be their masters, who follow Satan.

        You have to have at least a basic understanding of the Egyptians, and all the other Pagan regions and
        the nature of the fallen Angles, and what they did with the humans back then, to understand that the Egyptians were following Satan, and the fallen Angels literally. For Satan was already trying to do with
        mankind what God was about to do with mankind. Only that Satan and the fallen angles used it as themes, and not reality, and it was broken into pieces and spread around the world.

        Then God uses Moses to break the chains that bind them. Frees them from the Egyptians, they take off and go to the red sea. Where the water kills the sin, and saves Gods people. (baptism) But it is not a full freedom from sin they receive.

        After they are out of the slavery to sin they where once bound to, slavery to the Egyptians. Then Moses
        goes and gets the first installment of God’s laws, the Ten Commandments. When Moses comes back again God’s people again have fallen into sin. This to shows that just by Baptism alone you are not saved. Because as the Jews to were still sinful even though God saved
        them through the water, they returned to there sinful ways. And too we see that people that have been baptized to can go back in to a deep state of sin.

        Moses now having the Ten Commandments,
        the laws are now established, therefore sin is now imputed. To them before the law sin was not inputed. So what happen to them? God’s people that died before the law, and to all that had no idea of who
        the real God is that died before the Ten Commandments.

        In Romans 5:12-14 Paul is speaking to
        the early Christians, they where Catholic by the way.

        Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to
        all men, because all sinned for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

        Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of
        the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the
        new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

        We have to understand that it was only one commandment of God that was broken there. Not to eat of the fruit of Knowledge of good and evil, that Paul is taking about, therefore everything mankind did after that was not imputed onto mankind as a sin, for there was no laws against it. Still the punishment was death
        to mankind for breaking the first commandment that God spoke to Adam and Eve. Therefore mankind was allowed to do what ever it did and no sin was imputed onto mankind for doing it, death was all they got out
        of life for the first sin that was committed by Adam and Eve.

        Therefore the only charges against mankind was the sin of Adam and Eve.

        Do you think you should serve a life sentence in jail for another mans crime? Is that Just? We know that
        God is a Just God.

        To all that received death for the sin of two people, they went to a place called Sheol, or hades, depending on
        which translation one uses.

        Sheol occurs 65 times in the Hebrew Manuscripts of the Old Testament, and it means the grave (the place of the dead) or the pit, as correctly translated in almost all modern versions of the Bible since the KJV.

        Hades occurs 11 times in the Greek Manuscripts of the New Testament and it is the direct equivalent of the Hebrew word sheol; thus it also means the grave or the pit. This is how most modern versions of the Bible translate hades.

        In fact, sheol was divided into two compartments, one for the righteous dead and one for the wicked dead.
        And, more specifically, the Jewish concept of sheol was the “underworld,” or in other words, a place within the earth, underneath the surface world.

        Therefore we have a place for both God’s people, and ones that do not follow God, after they are dead
        from this world.

        We know that the Israelites are now God’s people and the rest are not, because God said so.

        We know this by the laws that God’s sets in Leviticus 18, where God gives them laws to live by, and tells
        them to no longer live like anyone else does.

        18 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘I am the Lord your God. 3 You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. 4 You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my
        decrees. I am the Lord your God. 5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the person who obeys them will live by them. I am the Lord.

        The laws, mans law, and God’s law. After Jesus showed up did what he did then left, then came back then left again.

        Now the old laws of Moses no longer apply to Christians, or mankind. Only what God himself told them still are intact. To the rest, they are no longer valid. For Jesus came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill the law and the prophets.

        When Jesus finally shows up. Jesus replaces Adam, and Mary replaces Eve. As the saying goes, “One bad
        apples spoils the while bunch.” therefore, to keep the bad apples out of the bunch, God has Jesus come from a Mother, and not doing it all over again like God did the first time, with a husband, and wife.

        It is the fruit from the stock of the plant instead. Still using a woman to help bring forth life. For the woman is the mans helper, and God is a man.

        But now to answer your question.

        When one reads anything that pertains to someone talking to another, you have to look at the person he is
        talking to, to understand who it is pertaining to. Example, someone sins, and someone does not. If you are talking to the person that sinned then the person that you are not talking to it does not pertain to. Because you are not talking to that person, you are not
        talking to someone else.

        When Jesus was speaking to the persons telling them there is many dwelling places in Heaven. He was speaking to His disciples, that was with him the whole time, not only learning his teachings, but Jesus too had them go out and practice them until they got them right, and not the common sinner, or someone that never
        heard of Him. They the ones that Jesus was talking to knew Jesus, and Jesus knew them.

        Therefore NO, would be the answer to that question. The only ones that can obtain heaven are them that are Jesus disciples. Yet too, even them that claim to be Jesus disciples, all that are Baptized and now Christians, they have to observe all of Jesus commandments to become true Disciples of Jesus.

        For Jesus said,Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father
        and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

        So logic states, that one that does not know of Jesus cannot know God’s will, therefore how can they enter
        Heaven?

        That too is why Jesus told his first disciples to go and make disciples of the nations, so many others too get gain entrance to heaven.

        Adam and Eve knew God, while God was in
        Heaven and they where on earth. They separated that union with God by what they did, and earth became corrupted as a result of it.

        For God’s will is for mankind to get to know God again so that what man did to separate himself from God by
        breaking that one commandment that separated mankind from God in this world, God uses Jesus to repair that separation, therefore, Jesus who
        is God made flesh, became man so that man may become god, and so that them that do become god, then the chains that bind you will be broken, and they can be no longer separated from God, only this time
        it will be in in Heaven that they will then be rejoined with God, not only by being in Heaven but too by being one with God. It is a marriage made in Heaven, with God to His creation.

        To them that have heard of Jesus. Within Jesus teachings we find that Jesus says, “Not everyone
        who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

        Therefore, I too say that ignorance of the law is no excuse, the law is no excuse, for Jesus is the law bearer. He fulfills the laws and the prophets. If you say you believe in Jesus then you better do as He says, or you are a lair, for you do not really believe in Jesus if you don’t, and lairs do not go to heaven.

        Again I must strongly stipulate that Jesus is telling this to His disciples not the common sinner.

        For Jesus has said. “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. “After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live,
        you will live also. “In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. “He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to
        him.” and “He who does not love Me does not keep My words;”

        and

        “the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.”

        To do to that you have to be Jesus and obey all of his commandments and not be like Adam that broke God’s
        commandment(s).

        To them that have never heard of Jesus, as Jesus came to fulfill the law to repair the damage that man made between mankind and God His Father. If there is no law then sin is not imputed. If you do not know about Jesus then you cannot know of God laws that Jesus fulfilled that you have to obey to get into what
        you need to get to get into Heaven.

        Therefore sin is not imputed. But you cannot go to Heaven, because again Gods will is for you to get to
        know Him again. If one has never heard of Jesus then one can never know His commandments to obey them to get to know God again how God wants man to know Him. Then, to them I say ignorance of the law is an
        excuse.

        Now we know that heaven and hell are real. All of Christianity believe in this, except them that are so
        far from the truth they just believe what ever they want all in the name of Jesus. That is the worst of them that use God’s name in vain.

        To them then is the worst of the punishment for breaking that commandment?

        So as one cannot get into heaven until they have become one with God to become god so that they can live with God where God lives. Then where would they go instead?

        Hell is now to hot to live in.

        So what is left?

        There is only one True Christianity that knows another place that is real, to them that is where they go.

        That is just a little bit of what I know.

      • James Sanchez

        God does not make mistakes Mike. God created everything and is utterly good, he did not make evil and the evil that is is out there is misdirected good. For example, Starvation on this planet could be solved over night. When Jesus states Father forgive them, for they know not what they do. This states how much God/Jesus loves everyone of his creations. When you sin you sin on your own free will which creates evil. I can assure you God did not make any mistakes. I never said you were going to hell but refusing Jesus Christ is a sure means of getting there for anyone as you stated. I was trying to clarify not knowing and refusing Jesus. Sorry if you felt I meant you were going to hell. God is my number one in life so for me it is quite easy to spend time with him and his word.

      • Mike

        I had written more for you to read, but this sight will not accept all of the text, I do believe it is because it is too big. So I give you the condensed version, instead of rewriting it all over again.

        James Sanchez

        You have a very hard time accepting the truth.

        This is one reason psychology is taught to the priest. So that hopefully they can apply it in everyday life to help others to fight off Satan’s lies. And not just theology, all the time with their theology, I do think they forget how to use psychology to help them help others, and themselves at times. As well as to see that if someone is having a psychological problem that it is Satan that isattacking them and they really need help and not condemnation. And just sit there and ignore cries for help from there people they are suppose to care about. Because they to are suppose to be just like GOD is.

        Now keep in mind mans two worst enemies, himself (man) and Satan (them against God). You are man and the person next to you is man. He too plays a part in this. Even your parents and caregivers and people you trust. They are all Satan’s tools and well as Gods too. And a
        tree is known by its fruit. You really have to know God to have an understanding of that. I thank God for the Scott that has helped to enlighten me. I just had to say that.

        As man too is a tree that can bear fruit. But man has two roots as he has two feet. One good and one evil. For man can be both good and evil, not at the same exact time, but because of freewill. He can be like the tree in the wind. Therefore if you have to pick your fruit from the same tree then you look for the best fruit, least you get a rotten fig.

        If someone tells you a lie it is depriving you of a lasting
        satisfaction of knowing the absolute truth of what ever it was they where speaking about. Therefore they will aways have turmoil in what ever amount it may be in there life wondering if that is really what it is. This is why you take a man for his word. Because it stops you from having to worry about it. God too knows this. That is why he too takes a man for his word. Like he wants you to take Him for His word.

        Now if you take a man for his word then find out he was lying to you then what happens, and where does the sin fall to?

        What kind of feelings do you have, and who really sinned?

        Now applying what God does to your own life. If you don’t take a man for his word instead you call him a lair before you find out the absolute truth in what he is telling you only to find out it was the truth after all. Then what happens and where does the sin fall to?

        If a man says something then says he did not say that when in fact he did then he too has just turned himself into a liar.

        He too can deny it until his death. Regardless of what anyone else says. Even the person he said it to. But he forgets he has someone to answer to in the end. As all mankind does even them that do nothing to help out someone that only they can help, for God does not do what he gave man to do, and the ability to do what God can do. God will attribute that to the man that does as sloth, that is stemmed from Pride, for Pride is the mother of the seven deadly sins.

        If he puts it in writing to strengthen what he says it too by his doing he is saying it to be the truth. Then says no I did not do that, well then he cannot deny it, can he?

        But some still do for man can deny anything just like he can justify anything in his own mind.

        Still in the end it can be a lie. It all depends on what is it
        they are denying. If it turns out to be a lie, then where does the sin fall to?

        The sin always falls to the lair. No matter what. To sin against your fellow man is to sin against God. Because we all come from him and all that is his returns to him, because it is His to begin with.

        Just like the kid that sees another in the play ground playing with his toys screams out at him, hey that is mine, give it back! God does the same. But too God is not selfish. So he lets what is his play with others and in turn hopes they do the same in sharing there things with the others. On and on it goes outwards. This is the action of the giving person. Which is God. Humble is that.

        Now back to the lie. If a man calls another man a liar on the on set before he knows the absolute truth. When in fact he is telling the truth then that just turns the one calling the other a lair into a liar.

        Because he just told the one that is telling the truth, he is
        saying that the truth is a lie. Which in itself is a lie for doing
        so. Therefore the lie goes back to the person that called the truthful person a liar. It has an inward action, which is
        selfishness. Because they did not keep there mind open until they knew the absolute truth. They shut it down before it was needed to be, their mind. This is Satan. Stubbornness is this.

        Think about it. Until you see the truth of what I just said. “For God hates the stubborn, humble yourself and become wise and find God’s favor”. Proverbs.

        Because Man has two roots James Sanchez I see good and evil in you. As I too have the same as you. All souls have this.

        You agreed with me and wrote me a post that said. “Mike you speak sound words but in the manner that you speak them offends more than helps you[r] cause.”

        agreeing with all that I said. Then I rebuked you for the rest of what you said in that post. Then you now say this. What you just posted to me. What happened did Satan attack you by reminding you of what I said? Then picked that part out, something that contrasts what is taught by the Church so he could have you attack me again to see
        how I would handle it?

        For he too is trying desperately to be sure that not only I go to hell but many others too. Hoping all that I tell will do as they are doing, which is nothing. For they do not really Love God.

        Or did God drop a thought into your head and maybe a feeling too so to get you to write me back so that I
        would write all of this then God knowing what I would do with it, so God can try to kill two birds with one stone?

        As well as I thought about something you said to me in that post and you told on yourself in something that you said in it didn’t make sense to me. “It is not about wrong or right when you are going to save someone. “

        why would you say such a thing, when you know there is a right and wrong? For even you where trying to tell me what I was doing was wrong, that action in itself is a contradiction coming out of you.

        Now we have this to contend to. What is going on with you? Are you finding yourself shrugging with your faith in Jesus? Or your over all belief system?

        I can tear what you wrote apart and prove you wrong. But I will not, (not yet at lest). Until you tell me what is your trouble. Seek deep and tell me. Then I will try to help you for God loves to help his people, he will not do it for them. So for me to try and be like God too let me see if I can help you.

        What is really bothering you? Or is this it, the fact that God could make a mistake, why would that bother you? For even Jesus had to be brought to perfection. Therefore it shows that even Jesus was capable of making mistakes. But the perfection he was brought to.
        What was that? What perfection is God looking to get out of man? For he is looking to make man perfect just like Him.

        But for the lie you told in this post, the sin is on you. You are now in a state of sin by your own doing and not mine.

        Now in this post you tell me quote, “I never said you were
        going to hell … ” that is a lie. Why did you lie to me, and not show me true humility instead, and not that sheepishly half truth and a misplaced sorry?

        “Mike refuting Christ while knowing of the truth and hearing his word you will go to hell.”

        now you tell me this,

        “Sorry if you felt I meant you were going to hell. God is my
        number one in life so for me it is quite easy to spend time with him and his word.”

        Be a man be like God, and show me true humility so that God will find favor in you. For there it is, the truth staring you right in the face. Now what will you do with it? Deny it, or except it, then what is next for you to do, run to “daddy” and tell him you did another wrong to someone other then him, personally then ask him to forgive you, or go to the one you wronged instead to ask for forgiveness from him the way you are suppose to? For you didn’t sin against the priest you go to to ask for forgiveness from, trying to
        back door your responsibility to God, you sinned against your brother.

        you are still in the sin of this lie, for you have not shown true humility.

        Mike

      • James Sanchez

        Mike, I am sorry I really think you are trying to just be righteous now. Priest are representatives of the Church they will never be Godly as you say they should be. There is no righteous or Godly man on the planet. This is in scripture. Peter himself denied Christ 3 times this was not a Godly act yet he was head of Christs Church. It is the Church that Jesus was referring to when he said that he would be with us until the end of time not anyone man. So when you refer to Scott setting you on the right path, is Scott who you have faith in or Christs Church? Everything you just told me falls in exactly what you may be yourself doing. First it is philosophy not psychology and it is the best way to get a grasp of certain concepts that are very hard to understand. I think we go to the same Church yet we have different understanding.

        14 What does this mean? That God acts unjustly? That is not to be thought of. 15 I will shew pity, he tells Moses, on those whom I pity; I will shew mercy where I am merciful;[5] 16 the effect comes, then, from God’s mercy, not from man’s will, or man’s alacrity. 17 Pharao,
        too, is told in scripture, This is the very reason why I have made thee
        what thou art, so as to give proof, in thee, of my power, and to let my
        name be known all over the earth.[6] 18 Thus he shews mercy where it is his will, and where it is his will he hardens men’s hearts.[7] 19 Hereupon thou wilt ask, If that is so, how can he find fault with us, since there is no resisting his will? 20 Nay, but who art thou, friend, to bandy words with God? Is the pot to ask the potter, Why hast thou fashioned me thus?[8] 21 Is
        not the potter free to do what he will with the clay, using the same
        lump to make two objects, one for noble and one for ignoble use? 22 It
        may be that God has borne, long and patiently, with those who are the
        objects of his vengeance, fit only for destruction, meaning to give
        proof of that vengeance, and display his power at last;[9] 23 meaning
        also to display, in those who are the objects of his mercy, how rich is
        the glory he bestows, that glory for which he has destined them.[10]

        This is Gods sovereign right by scripture, so if God is using a Church to reveal your true heart towards your brother (everyone is Gods child therefore your brother) he really could because it is his right, because he can do anything he wants to. Jesus was into saving not righteousness he spoke the truth yes, but not in the manner you do. That’s all i was saying

        I am only trying to help in your path however I must say this last post was a rant of righteousness and how wrong I am or how much I have wronged you not God’s word so that we can come to and understanding.

        9 Well then, has either side the advantage?
        In no way. Jews and Gentiles, as we have before alleged, are alike
        convicted of sin.[2] 10 Thus, it is written, There is not an innocent man among them, no, not one. 11 There is nobody who reflects, and searches for God; 12 all alike are on the wrong course, all are wasted lives; not one of them acts honourably, no, not one.[3] 13 Their mouths are gaping tombs, they use their tongues to flatter. Under their lips the venom of asps is hidden.[4] 14 Their talk overflows with curses and calumny.[5] 15 They run hot-foot to shed blood; 16 havoc and ruin follow in their path;[6] 17 the way of peace is unknown to them. 18 They do not keep the fear of God before their eyes.[7] 19 So
        the law says, and we know that the words of the law are meant for the
        law’s own subjects; it is determined that no one shall have anything to
        say for himself, that the whole world shall own itself liable to God’s
        judgements.[8] 20 No human creature can
        become acceptable in his sight by observing the law; what the law does
        is to give us the full consciousness of sin.

        Mike this is scripture not me just coming up with my own thoughts and words. If I am wrong please correct me and refer to scripture in this path or a doctrine that is observed by a Church and why. From my perspective or understanding you are following Scott not a Church. Show me through scripture were God or Jesus is imperfect or can make mistakes. The God i know is so perfect that not one man can lay eyes on him and live.

      • Mike

        James…. you said to me ….

        “Mike, I am sorry I really think you are trying to just be
        righteous now.”

        for one Satan now has you side tracking the sin you are in
        against, me. I am not that blind.

        and only the righteous go to heaven, I thought you where a Christian because if you where then you’d already know that.

        “Priest are representatives of the Church they will never be Godly as you say they should be. There is no righteous or Godly man on the planet.”

        If that where a true statement then no one would go to Heaven. As well as you should not always project your own self image on to everyone in this world. To make yourself feel better about yourself.

        “This is in scripture. Peter himself denied Christ 3 times this was not a Godly act yet he was head of Christs Church.”

        You have no true understanding of anything about that whatsoever,

        “It is the Church that Jesus was referring to when he said that he would be with us until the end of time not anyone man.”

        Again, I thought you where Catholic, therefore you still have no idea what it is you are saying, again. For you have no understanding of what the Church is. It is in the CCC find it, read it, remember it, then prove me wrong. As well you too are mistaken about that passage, Jesus was not talking to a building but men when he said that.

        “So when you refer to Scott setting you on the right path, is Scott who you have faith in or Christs Church?”

        I have faith in God. But Scott is someone that knows, both God and Jesus, and they both, God, and Jesus know him, personally, he is a walking saint. So I too learn from him as well as God, and Jesus.

        “Everything you just told me falls in exactly what you may be yourself doing. First it is philosophy not psychology and it is the best way to get a grasp of certain concepts that are very hard to understand.”

        “what you may be”

        that is you stating you have not got a clue, for you are blinded by your sin, and the rest of that block of a statement is just confusing, like Satan is.

        To me, it is now you that one for you seem to likes to play nit pick and try to confuse people, this is Satan’s game. A tree if known by it fruit.

        And it is psychology is what you need to know to see and fight Satan too. For some it is a hard matter to understand.

        You are a lost boy doing Satan’s will. Because you yourself admitted you are in a state of mortal sin, and you still have sinned against me so that too is now attached to you, along with what ever others sins you may have on you still. So Satan sees me in here telling the truth, then now is using you to not only attack me, but to keep you confused to what the real truth is, so that you will believe all the lies that are out side your head getting in, that is stopping you from opening up your mind and quit being closed minded. For a closed minded man is of what?

        And you are too blinded in your sins to see it, so much you won’t even understand much of what I have told you here.

        “I think we go to the same Church yet we have different
        understanding.” you believe th lie I do not. You stand up for the lie, and give Satan, and his play toys sympathy so Satan uses use to his means, and Not God. But again, you are so blinded in your sins you will not see it. Instead you will scoff at it.

        I have no idea that passage this comes from …..

        14 What does this mean? That God acts unjustly? That is not to be
        thought of. 15 I will shew pity, he tells Moses, on

      • James Sanchez

        Mike again you are going on another righteous rant. If you think for one second there is one person on this planet without sin. This discussion needs to come to a close until you have a better understanding of what you are reading or hearing. Of course he was not talking about building this is commons sense, he was talking about everyone associate with his Church. God is not trying to save buildings. You cannot rely on Scott to make you righteous because when all is said and done you will be judged on your actions and you will not have the excuse, well that is what Scott told me. I was against Christ and what I was expected because of every so called Christian acting the way you are, and found failure after failure. I studied scripture to prove it wrong and find an easier way to obtain heaven and could not disprove aspects of certain things, because I was trying to disprove everything. it is pretty hard to be converted to a better understanding when you are against something in the first place.

        “I’d be a Christian if it were not for the Christians!”
        ~ Mahatma Gandhi
        “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ” ~ Mahatma Gandhi

        Here is the outcome you will face if you continue to portray Christs church the way you are.

        1 The disciples came to Jesus at this time and said, Tell us, who is greatest in the kingdom of heaven? 2 Whereupon Jesus called to his side a little child, to whom he gave a place in the midst of them, 3 and said, Believe me, unless you become like little children again, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 He is greatest in the kingdom of heaven who will abase himself like this little child. 5 He who gives welcome to such a child as this in my name, gives welcome to me.[1] 6 And
        if anyone hurts the conscience of one of these little ones, that
        believe in me, he had better have been drowned in the depths of the sea,
        with a mill-stone hung about his neck. 7 Woe
        to the world, for the hurt done to consciences! It must needs be that
        such hurt should come, but woe to the man through whom it comes!

        So here is more scripture for you, not from a human but from Jesus. Do you really think think Jesus would be proud of you? Do you think the children he is referring to are on only actual children or a humbled adult that admits he will never be righteous? If anyone on this planet thinks that they have it all figured out and that they are going for sure, would not Jesus be lying?

        Sorry Mike you lost me and probably many others and if you continue to think that you or the people you follow are so righteous you will not get far with the statement I speak the truth. You speak the truth with what sound backing you used a few scripture references and then Scott. Have Scott post for you to enlighten me with scripture in your beliefs if you are unable to. It is OK if I am wrong I can admit I am wrong because ultimately I want to be saved but I can guarantee you Scott can set me on a path possibly but only through Jesus one is saved

      • Mike

        I have only read like the first line or two of your little rant of not knowing what God is all about. so when you have gone back to school and relearned everything you think you already know. then too bad for you for not knowing the truth, that is your own fault, and NOT MINE!!

        for what I have told you and tried to share with you is the ABSOLUTE TRUTH. it is because you are still closed minded the Truth which is God will never get in side of you the way God wants it to start with.

        I just caught this part here, so I will comment in it too,

        “You cannot rely on Scott to make you righteous because when all is said
        and done you will be judged on your actions and you will not have the
        excuse, well that is what Scott told me.”

        it is stupid to even think or believe that even GOD would make you righteous so you can go to heaven.

        God wants you to do it like Scott did. Because He is Jesus little Brother, and Scott had to do everything that Jesus taught man to do, that the Catholic Church tries to teach you and everyone that goes there to do. Die to yourself so that God can live inside of you, so that you too will become god. Because Scott too is God.

      • James Sanchez

        All I can say is, I will pray for you. Good luck and God be with you.

      • Mike

        stay open minded and just read what Jesus said in Matthew 5,6,7 to get you stared then do as Jesus said to do because God would never tell his people to do something you could not do and God WANTS you to be perfect like Jesus had to get to the perfection – as “He was brought to perfection” .. as you can see that statement lets the reader know even Jesus was not perfect to start with he too had to work on it as Jesus said to all that want to follow Him.

        8 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

        because God want’s you to be perfect. therefore yes you too get be righteous by doing the right thing by obeying all of Jesus commandments make them part of you

        Jesus said, if you Love me Keep my commandments

        it is simple but not that simple

    • Mike

      if you had a real understanding of what purgatory is and what one goes through in purgatory, and you where in purgatory you would be wanting someone and as many people as possible praying for you too asking God to to get you out of purgatory as soon as possible.

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