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Our readers asked:

Where in the Bible does it say that Mary, mother of Jesus, is sinless? And if it is not in the Bible, why does the Catholic Church act like she is?

Fr. Joe Answers:

Catholics differ from some Christian Churches which accept the Scripture as the only source of God’s revelation. Catholics have a strong belief in the truth of Scripture, but we also believe in tradition as a way in which God continues to reveal truth to us. Tradition can include beliefs, customs, prayers, and worship, the teaching of popes, bishops, theologians and Church councils. It’s our process of continually reflecting on the way in which the Word of God encounters our own experience as a community of faith.

Catholic understanding is that tradition includes the Scripture, and began before the gospels and letters were written. We do believe that Scripture is a unique revelation from God and that the truths of tradition must always be tested and evaluated against the truths revealed in Scripture. They should not contradict Scripture. They should find their roots in Scripture.

The belief that Mary lived without sin from the moment of her conception springs from Church tradition. It evolved over a period of time, and was not formally defined as a teaching of the Church until 1854. It is not found explicitly in Scripture, but seems for Catholics to flow naturally from the testimony of Scripture that Mary was “full of grace” (Luke 1:28) and “blessed” (Luke 1:42).

In Catholic understanding the belief in Mary’s “immaculate conception” does not say so much about Mary as it is about Christ’s saving power. We believe that God created the human person to be in God’s own image. Grace is more original than sin. Our natural state was to be “full of grace.” Sin is our universal experience but it’s not what God intended for us in the past nor wants for us in the future. We are saved from sin through Christ. Mary’s being conceived without sin takes place in the context of the entire saving act of Christ. In being “full of grace” she is a model of what we human beings were intended to be and who we are redeemed to be through God’s saving power. She is the first sign of God’s victory over sin in Christ.

You also ask: “Why are Catholics who are baptized when they were infants, choose to lead unholy, even atheistic lives, die and then the priest at the funeral says they are going to heaven because they were baptized?”

The bishop of Rome, as head of the Catholic Church, sometimes declares certain people to be “saints” because they lived such exemplary and holy lives that we can believe with confidence that they are “with God in heaven.” Such a declaration only comes after a long investigation into the facts of that person’s life. The Catholic Church has never declared any deceased person to be “in hell.” Aside from this we don’t know and can’t presume the eternal state of any person who has died, although we believe that God desires all people to be with him in death as well as in life. Baptism does not automatically ensure that a person will go to heaven when he or she dies. We must try to live out our Baptism with lives of faith, hope and love.

The Catholic Church asks its members to pray for those who have died BECAUSE we know that we are all sinners, and even when we have tried to live a good life we can die short of the purity of heart that makes eternal life “with God” a reality. Yet we believe that God’s mercy is not thwarted by death and that God has the power to purify and transform the soul even after death so that it is fully open to participating in eternal life. Purgatory is not a place of “sentences”, like a prison, because it exists in eternity which is timeless.

We should certainly pray for the living as well, that they may accept God’s grace into their lives.

 
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The Author : Fr. Joe
Fr. Joe Scott, CSP, has been a campus minister, pastor and editor as a Paulist priest.
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Please note that the editorial staff reserves the right to not post comments it deems to be inappropriate and/or malicious in nature, as well as edit comments for length, clarity and fairness.
  • Righteous Bill

    So even though we chose to sin (Genesis 3), and it is passed on (Romans 5:12 and others) to all generations (Romans 3:23 and others), It skipped a generation at Mary? Is there scriptural evidence to this claim?
    And to the last question; what about the scriptures that say one must have faith to enter heaven (Matt 7:21-23, 18:13, Eph 2:8-10, Heb. 11:6)?

  • Cruelcat

    well put

  • Anthony Michael

    Why is purgatory required when Christ paid for our redemption in full? Was Christs sacrifice not sufficient to cleanse us from all unrighteousness??

    • Amy Nicole Acker-Mobley

      you are right he did pay for our sins and his sacrifice is sufficient to God. However we hold ourselves back from him with every sin we commit. purgatory is a time and place for us to renew our broken relationship and turn our attention back to him. If I wrong my friend I still have to say I am sorry and work to make it up to them to fix the relationship. God is easier on us than we are on each other but we still need to repair what we have broken.I know there are better answers out there but I hope this helps a little bit.

      • David Westhoff

        Jesus said to be saved is to have faith in him…nothing more…JW’s and Mormons and all cults have a works based format which is totally un-Biblical…everytime Jesus is asked what needs to be down to be saved he never mentions works… The thief in the cross was saved he was not baptized nor did he do any works and yet he was in paradise that very day with Jesus.

      • Amy Nicole Acker-Mobley

        it is funny you lump the Roman Catholic Church in as a cult since we come from the the Apostles (peter who is the rock Jesus built his church on.) how far back can you trace your religion???

      • David Wilkerson

        Jesus said He was building church on himself… He is the rock peter , petros is little stone… and upon this rock petras… big stone I will build my church.. the bible says over 50 times that God and Jesus are a Rock…

      • Cruelcat

        back to the “church in the wilderness”…mentioned in the Bible from when Moses led his people from Egypt…that’s my church…much much older than catholicism.
        1 Timothy 4:1-3
        1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
        1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
        1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
        there’s only one cult that does this…catholicism!

      • Cruelcat

        please post scriptures to back up this remark…

  • Defins

    So in other words the catholic church made it up.

    • David Westhoff

      you got it!

  • JuliePurple

    Has anyone else noticed how often people say “stop deceiving yourself” or “stop deceiving other people” when all it is, is that they disagree? Because, of course, each of us is “right”. :-)

    • noni

      Hi Julie,
      just for curiosity, have you read “Caesar’s Messiah? If you haven’t, do so. Its fascinating. If you already have done so, what do you think?

      sincerely
      Noni

      • JuliePurple

        Hi, Noni
        No, I haven’t read it… I tend to focus on science fiction and fantasy… but I’ll check it out. Thanks for the tip!
        Hugs to you, kiddo!
        Julie

  • spurgeon687

    Luke 1:46-

    46 And Mary said:

    “My soul glorifies the Lord
    47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, Only sinners need a Savior. Case closed. Worship Jesus!!

    • ray

      Glorify does not mean she committed sin. Even Jesus – The Son of God glorified His Father. Does this mean He committed sin too ??

      • David Westhoff

        Wow you can’t read that’s not what he said….it appears you add your own interpretations to everything!

      • David Wilkerson

        Mary had other children after Jesus…

  • Lindamaeb

    She was a virgin, but she was not sinless. The Bible says, in 1 John 1:9 if we say we have no sin we call God a liar and the truth is not in us. Also, in Romans it says all have sinned and fall short of God’s glory. But this will be only relevant of you go by God’s word and not man’s made up traditions.

    • JuliePurple

      God’s word is the flight of the lark and the hawk by day, the flight of the owl and the bat by night, the flow of the waterfall, the breath of the wind, the pull of gravity… and so forth. The bible is ideas of humans.

    • ray

      God never instructed the apostles to follow a book !! He sent them the Holy Spirit in the form of tongues of fire. He never gave them a book to follow or to be the level of instruction that is why sola scriptura is nowhere found in the bible. The New Testament Canon was based on Sacred Tradition. The level of instruction before the bible (Latin Vulgate) was decided and closed by the Catholic Church in the 4th cent. was all Oral Tradition.

      Mary was sinless because God gave enmity between her and the devil in Genesis 3:15. So how can you commit sin if the devil cannot seduce or tempt you ??

      • David Wilkerson

        Mother goddess worship started in Babylon and was merged into the Catholic church… Mother goddess worship was active around the world before the Catholic church…

      • David Wilkerson

        Mary is given great importance not by the bible, but by the Catholic
        church starting around 300-400 ad.. Over time the importance of Mary
        grew until the 1800′s when she was declared by the RCC as having been
        assumed into heaven. The RCC also says that Mary remained a virgin all
        her life and that she was born without sin. The RCC says that she is a
        co-mediatrix and mediatrix of graces.. They say that if we pray to Mary
        she will tell Jesus and he has to do what his mother wants.
        Well, what does the bible say about all that?

        The bible does not indicate Mary was born without sin, and tells us she
        offered a sacrifice for her sins according to the law. If Mary was born
        without sin, I am wondering how that took place as she had a human
        father and mother.. Were they also without sin? If Mary had no sin, why
        do we need a Jesus? If Mary were without sin would that not make the
        sacrifice of Jesus null and void, because He would not possess our
        nature, one part needed for the sacrifice to be effectual.

        The
        bible tells us that Mary had other children, in that she waited UNTIL
        Jesus was born to have children with her husband.. The bible tells us of
        the brothers and sisters of Jesus.. These were not Christian brothers
        and sisters as we are told, (they were blood siblings) as the church
        had not yet begun and Christ had not yet died. They were not cousins,
        because the language and the scene are clear that they are not.
        The bible tells us that there is but one mediator between God and man and that is Jesus..

        We are not directed in anyplace in the bible to pray to Mary nor to
        venerate her. The definition of the word worship in the Hebrew is ” to
        kneel and kiss” We are also directed by the bible not to make statues
        and pray to them , kneel to them, nor kiss them…

        So where do
        all these ideas come from.? Mother child worship started in Babylon and
        spread throughout the world and was in pagan Rome.. The RCC merged this
        mother child worship into Christianity and simply changed the names to
        Mary and Jesus..
        Mary is not the mother of God, she is the instrument of God to bring the Savior into the world.

        So is this really all a big deal? Whats the fuss? Mary is the mother
        of Jesus,. could there be all that much harm done? Well yes it is a big
        deal. It is idolatry and is it really Mary the mother of Jesus? What
        would Mary herself have to say about all this? Would she enjoy all this
        attention, veneration and really worship?

        Would not Mary point us to Jesus?

  • Mike

    Mary was a virgin before she had Jesus that is a big one. Whereas a woman that has had pre-marital sex is in mortal sin. so that is a good start, to be a virgin on ones way to being sinless.

    • David Westhoff

      Jesus said even the thought of sin is committing it, mary sinned,,,she was not sinless…being a virgin isn’t sinless you can be a virgin and think all kinds of unholy thoughts…yet as I pointed out.
      Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
      this idea goes with every other commandment like thievery, if you thought of it, you did it…a sinless person would never even think of it…think of a commandment apply it to this and it’s sin.

      • JuliePurple

        I’m sorry, but that’s just sick. Talk about laying a guilt trip! How
        about this: something comes up in your mind that some consider to be a “sin”, and you say, no, I’m not going to do that. I think that is a lot harder than not even thinking of it in the first place. What kind of courage or discipline does it take to avoid something that doesn’t even occur to you?

        “If you thought it, you did it”… bullpooky. That’s emotional manipulation, buddy, and it’s based on a lie. That’s what control freaks do.

      • David Westhoff

        Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust
        after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
        Apparently you made up your own version of religion…

        Eve committed sin right when she thought of eating the fruit, not when she ate it…there was nothing special with the fruit it was just fruit, but again as soon as Eve thought of disobeying God, that was sin…sit back think before you reply, fact is no one can keep the commandments for this very reason. All the church Father’s all believed this idea. Jesus said so!

      • JuliePurple

        David, you seem like a nice guy. I accept that for you, what the church says is true. That’s cool, nothing wrong with that. But some of us prefer to search for a reality-based truth. And by the way, that is not my/our “own version of religion”; it’s simply a search for truth. Whatever good qualities most religions have, they also are handicapped by having been based on myths. It’s a sad thing when people have to rely on myth for trying to find truth.
        And look, David, it’s kind of counterproductive to use quotes from a mythology book to shore up your argument with someone who doesn’t buy into the same myths.
        Oh, and just as a little hint, throwing around personal insults doesn’t help your argument any. Just sayin’.

      • David Westhoff

        Well those scriptures are for Christians, not pagans or atheists (same thing). So you got button’ to worry about ( well not really but you know what I mean)…I’m talking to the Catholics anyways, or cultists.

      • JuliePurple

        Okay, cool that you’re directing your comments to Catholics; it wasn’t obvious to me. And given that context, I think you’ll probably find a lot of agreement.
        But just so you know, pagans and atheists aren’t the same. Pagans typically honor many gods (or at least two), while atheists acknowledge none at all. Their only similarity is that neither is Christian.
        Would you please explain your last sentence? Are you grouping Catholics and cultists together?

      • David Westhoff

        Yes Catholics belong to a cult, just like Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses

      • David Westhoff

        You dope I didn’t write it, God did!

      • Phil Fox Rose

        You’re getting yourself blacklisted, David Westhoff. You have repeatedly insulted other commenters, and with vulgarity. You can have any opinion you want, but not attack other readers.3

      • ray

        Where in the bible (scriptures) say that Mary committed sin ?? Adam and Eve before they fell from grace were pure and unadulterated, so how dare you interpret the bible by saying all have sinned ?? Does that include Jesus’ human nature ?? You contradict many verses in the bible by cherry picking verses. Another silly evangHellical masonic analogy to look for a reason to hate Mary the Mother of God.

      • David Westhoff

        All humans are born with original sin, Bible days if you think you have no sin you call God a liar. Mary was born with sin just like the rest if us…you keep ignoring Luke where Mary says she needs a saviour, the only people who need a saviour are people with sin, did Jesus need a saviour? No…the Bible also says all need a saviour, Mary was born with sin just like the rest of us, also Mary is not the mother of God, she was the mother of the human Jesus, God is eternal God was here before Mary, she could not have given birth to God who already existed.

      • ray

        Wrong !! LOL !! How can the Holy Spirit conceive Jesus if Mary’s was a sinner, if her womb is part of her sinful body. Then that negates Christ as the “spotless Lamb”. Mary was predestined to be the Mother of God in Genesis 3:15 by God by putting “enmity” between her and SATAN !! The enmity was her saving grace from sin, protecting her from the seduction, temptation and attacks from the devil. This is the Immaculate Conception.

        Enoch and Elijah was assumed into heaven body and soul. That means they are blameless before the Lord. In Gen 6:9 (Noah is righteous and blameless before the Lord), Gen 17:1 (God tells Abram to be blameless before Him), Job 1:1, 8, 2:3, ect…(the whole book) (Job was blameless and God said so), Dan 6:22 (Daniel is blameless before the Lord), Lk 1:6 (John the Baptists parents are both blameless and righteous), Rev 14:1-6 (the multitude of 144,000 is blamesless). If being “blameless before the Lord” suggests that the person did not commit personal sin, including aborted children and children who are not in the age of reasoning – these are exceptions to what Paul is addressing. Continued……

      • David Westhoff

        Romans 3:23,”

      • ray

        Part one – Who says Mary did not need a saviour ?? The “enmity” given to her by God
        in Genesis, in the Old Testament was her saving grace that kept her
        from the stain of original sin and any sin of any kind during her
        earthly life. This enmity was given between her and SATAN (serpent) !!
        Because she was predestined to be the mother of Jesus (God), so the Holy
        Spirit can enter her womb uncorrupted !! Because if not, then Jesus
        would not be called a spotless lamb, which will contradict the
        perfection of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit !! A person can
        already be saved before being born through the grace of God such as
        Noah, Enoch, Elijah and Job, parents of John the baptist, Revelation
        chapter 14 verse 1 to 6, the multitude of 144,000 is blameless. That is
        why Mary said in her Magnificat – My soul MAGNIFIES the Lord, this means
        her soul mirrors the holiness and purity of Jesus. Paul’s epistle to
        the Romans in chapter 3 deals with personal sin because it speaks of
        sins committed by the sinners. To sin a person has to know the act he is
        about to perform is sinful while freely engaging his will in carrying
        it out. Without the proper faculties to enable them to sin, children
        before the age of accountability and anyone who does not have the use of
        his intellect and will cannot sin. So, there are and have been million
        of exceptions to Romans 3 verse 23 and John 1 verse 8.

      • David Westhoff

        Wrong but look you’re a catholic, you’re told what to believe…and you try to battle verse against verse, this is typical cult talk, just like Jehovah’s witnesses and Mormons, Christian Science, so i understand your problems trying understand but only sinners need saviours, Jesus does not need a sinless vehicle to be born

      • ray

        And your one of those fanatical 40,000+ zio evangelical denominations that has created a mockery out of Chrisitanity. We read, exegete scriptures in context not cherry picking verses that would typically divide personal beliefs and theologies that would create the next fast food chain of cults and churches. The Catholic church has stood the test of time. All the early church fathers were all Catholic, the Apostolic Fathers were all disciples and students of the apostles. Your handy bible was codified, canonized, compiled, published and closed by the Catholic Church. If you disagree with us throw away your bible. Because everytime you open, flip, thump and read your handy bible, you are still under the Magisterium, Pope. The bible is a Catholic book made for Catholics and its relationship with Christ thru the sacraments.

      • David Westhoff

        I detest evangelicals…I am reformed Christian you keep guessing wrong. You detest Gods word is all, Mary needed a saviour like us all, if Mary was sinless the she could have done what Jesus did on the cross…lol you didn’t think of that…so it’s simple just show a scripture showing Mary needed to be sinless …you can’t there are none…too bad you don’t have a job you sit all day posting lies…back to work for me

      • ray

        I don’t think your reading my comments very clearly. I said Mary needed a saviour, but saving does not mean you can only be saved when you are out of your mother’s womb, a person can be saved before or after. In this case Mary was saved because an enmity was given by God between her and the serpent devil, and this was prophesied before she was born in the New Testament thousands of years later. Try to understand Genesis chapter 3 verse 15. This is very important because Jesus must be born in a pure and unadulterated womb or else the Holy Spirit will refuse to conceive a child (Jesus) if a woman’s womb is from a sinful woman. So definitely she has to be sinless! Jesus is the Manna, bread of heaven. And Jesus said no one can enter the kingdom of heaven unless you are holy and perfect, so how can the manna, bread of heaven enter a sinful person’s womb? Second, if I believe your personal theology on Paul’s letter to the Romans in chapter 3, then that would be a contradiction to the lives of Enoch, Elijah, Job, Noah, the parents of John the Baptist. And reformed Christians is just another different denominations all claiming that they have the truth but do not, this is another false belief that they are doing the right thing but eventually it will be just another sect or cult causing more divisions all to the adherence of the false biblical doctrine of sola scriptura.

      • David Westhoff

        Ugh I don’t read your nonsense, but my family line can be traced back before Jesus and the traditions I was given say Mary needed a saviour and she was a sinner just like everyone else. And that’s just the way it is…Mary is not a mediator…tradition and the Bible agree only one is mediator Jesus, you cannot pray to Mary, rosaries don’t help either. No apparitions no signs anymore just as Jesus said. Mary was NOT the mother of God, God created Mary…she was just the vehicle for Jesus to be born, but every scripture I have posted says that…you cannot post one single verse saying otherwise.

      • ray

        All cherry picked verses that you have posted is a contradiction to the beliefs of the apostles, the early church fathers, and the church. Since you refuse to accept that I believe that Mary needed a saviour just shows how pompous and arrogant you are when someone contradicts your unbiblical heretical sola scriptura reasoning. Again, I have to explain it you like a little child once again. Mary needed a saviour, The Father, Son and the Holy Ghost. She was saved before she was born because this was prophesied in Genesis three verse fifteen. The enmity given to her protected her from the seduction and harm of satan. God did this so His spirit, the Holy Spirit in the New testament can choose a pure and holy womb so Jesus can be conceived!! Because it does not make any sense for Jesus to be the all holy and righteous one if He will reside to a corrupted womb for 9 months! Mary confirmed her purity in her Magnificat, My soul doth magnify the Lord! Magnify means to make greater in actual size, enlarge!

      • ray

        Praying to Mary is biblical, because Mary is the Ark of the Covenant of the New Testament! The Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament carried the Manna, Bread of heaven, Aaron’s Rod, and the Tablets. The Ark of the Covenant of the New
        Testament, Mary, carried Jesus, the Bread of heaven; The High Priest; The Living Word, The Tablet. And who says Mary was not created by God. Mary is the Mother of God because Jesus is God the Son, He’s divinity and humanity are one. John 10:30 I and the Father are one. Mary is also the Mother of God, because the Holy Trinity, Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are inseparable (One God). Luke chapter 1 verse 47, And whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me? So is Mary’s cousin Elizabeth lying when she said this?

      • David Westhoff

        No it isn’t please show scripture that says pray to Mary, the ark of the convenient is a box constructed by Moses and Aaron …the trinity is god Jesus and Holy Spirit nowhere does this include Mary…nowhere in the Bible does it at this, the traditions handed down never say this, in fact the Bible says there is only one mediator….Jesus, Mary just gave birth to the human Christ, not God, god created Mary, Mary would have to be God making God not God…wow you just regurgitate catholic heresy…i

      • ray

        So where did Jesus stayed for 9 months before He was born? This is basic typology of the scriptures both Old Testament and New Testament. The usual you don’t know this.

      • ray

        Tobit 12:12 Angel presents Tobit and Sarah’s prayer to God. Romans 15:30 Join me by your prayers to God on my behalf. 2 Corinthians 1:10-11 On him we have set our hope that he will continue to deliver us, 11 as you help us by your prayers. Then many will give thanks on our behalf for the gracious favor granted us in answer to the prayers of many. Colossians 4:3 And pray for us, too, that God may open a door for our message, so that we may proclaim the mystery of Christ, for which I am in chains. Ephesians 6:18-19 Never get tired of staying awake to pray for all God’s holy people, and pray for me to be given an opportunity to open my mouth and fearlessly make known the mystery of the Gospel. 1 Thessalonians 5:25 Brothers and sisters, pray for us. 2 Thessalonians 1:11We always pray for you. 2 Thessalonians 3:1 Finally, brothers, pray for us. Philemon 1:6 I pray that your partnership with us in the faith may be effective in deepening your understanding of every good thing we share for the sake of Christ. Revelation 5:8 Angel offers prayers of the holy ones to God.

      • ray

        The only heresy is your sola scriptura doctrine. Mediation only means in between, Jesus never prohibited anyone not to pray for each other! Have you ever prayed for somebody regarding their health, medication, school, jobs etc.? If you do then you are technically a mediator. God told us to pray for each other in His name!

      • ray

        Who says Mary is part of the Holy Trinity ?? We pray to Mary because Jesus is present in her. The DNA of a child also remains with the mother. What part of this you don’t understand? That is why it is called typology. The Ark of the Covenant of the Old Testament is being fulfilled by Mary in the New Testament. And praying to the Ark of the Covenant is biblical! Uzzah even died wrongfully worshipping the Ark by touching it!! And praying to the Ark is biblical!!

        (Ex. 25:18-20) – And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.

        19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.

        20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.

        (1 chronicles 28:18-20) – At the altar of incense pure gold weight should be used: the transport plan, holding the gold cherubim outstretched wings over the ark of the covenant of Yahweh. All this, he said it is written in the hand of Yahweh signified kin plan all do …

        (2 Chronicles 3:10-11) – In the most holy room he decided to build a two cherubim carved and overlaid with gold. “The wings of the cherubim were twenty cubits long; five cubits was the one wing struck the wall of the chamber and five cubits the other wing also struck the wing of a cherub.

        (Ezekiel 41:17-20) – From the door to the inside of the House and around the inner wall of the room. There are graven cherubim and palm; Each cherub had two faces. face of the person facing the palm on one side and the face of a lion facing palm on one side in the spleen around the house. From the floor to the top of the door were cherubim and palmang reflected on the wall ..

        (Joshua 7:6) – ripped Joshua and all the leaders of Israel, their clothes, put ashes on their heads a nagtirapa before the ark of Yahweh vouchers evening ….

        Moses was commanded by God to make an image of the snake. I ask? when they worshiped there, is this idolatry?

        (Numbers 21:8-9) – 8 And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

        (1 Kings 6:23-29) And within the oracle he made two cherubims of olive tree, each ten cubits high.

        24 And five cubits was the one wing of the cherub, and five cubits the other wing of the cherub: from the uttermost part of the one wing unto the uttermost part of the other were ten cubits. 25 And the other cherub was ten cubits: both the cherubims were of one measure and one size. 26 The height of the one cherub was ten cubits, and so was it of the other cherub. 27 And he set the cherubims within the inner house: and they stretched forth the wings of the cherubims, so that the wing of the one touched the one wall, and the wing of the other cherub touched the other wall; and their wings touched one another in the midst of the house. 28 And he overlaid the cherubims with gold. 29 And he carved all the walls of the house round about with carved figures of cherubims and palm trees and open flowers, within and without.

        (2 Samuel 6:3-5) – They were forced aboard the ark of God on a new cart and brought it from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and ahio were the sons of Abinadab the umagapaysa new wagon, leading to Kabansi ahio. Full force dancing David and all the house of Israel before Yahweh

        Divine Image: someone who does not deserve to die while no respect for the divine desire for it could not lay ….

        (2 Samuel 6:6-7) – And when they came to Nachon’s threshingfloor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it. 7 And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God.

        Jesus allows itself to images ….

        (Mark 12:16-17) – They handed him a denarius, and said unto him: “What is described here, that here too his name?” They answered, “Caesar” And he said to them: “Give unto Caesar for Caesar, and to God what belongs to God”

      • ray

        Revelation 12: 12 And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the
        moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered. 3 And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads, and ten horns: and on his head seven diadems: 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered; that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod: and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne.

        - This is the vision from God given to Apostle John. That Mary is not just an ordinary human being! She is also part of the eternal event of the birth, death, passion of Christ!

      • David Westhoff

        1 Timothy 2:5, “for the is only one mediator Jesus”

      • David Westhoff

        It doesn’t say she gave birth to God

      • ray

        Please use common sense and get off your unbiblical sola scriptura philosophy! Who is Jesus to you? Is He only human to you or True God and True Man? If you don’t look at Him both at the same time, then you are an anathema!

      • David Westhoff

        Please use Hods word and quit using catholic dogma…Jesus when he was on earth was a human you mental midget. He is God, but Mary didnt give birth to god she gave birth to the human Jesus, but I see you wild rather get away from my questions with stupid remarks.
        One point you’re quoting scripture, then when I show you you’re wrong you go back to oral lies and claim scripture is no good, lol you flip flop worse than a liberal politician!
        Look I don’t make these assertions for you, as the Bible states you have a veil over your eyes, and are not of the elect, sorry you were never saved. Mary was a human not sinless, not the mother of God, if she was she would have to give birth to God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit!
        There is only one mediator Jesus 1 Tim 2:5.
        You’re just banging your head against the wall praying to everyone BUT God. You detest God, you have no respect for Gods Word the Bible, you only follow sinful men in pointy hats…you pray to popes pray to Mary pray to other men you think are worthy, probably pray to angels, every one BUT God…I feel sorry for you, but oh well, since you were never chosen, it’s ok. Have fun in hell…lol you will think it’s purgatory…but it’s really hell…sorry you were never saved. Bye cult follower I have a job I can’t waste any more time in a lost soul. Sucks to be you!

      • ray

        The only one that disrespects and mocks God’s words are protestants, fundamentalists, evangelicals and all other independent churches, sects and cults. Historically they have perverted scriptures, the bible, to fashion their own beliefs for their own self interest and agenda. The end result is a shattered 40,000+ denominations with no end in sight. The unbiblical sola scriptura, sola fide, predestination, rapture etc are always the excuse to create their own independent personal theologies. How can you claim that you are for the truth, and inspired by the Holy Spirit, you cannot even agree on the issue of salvation? Laughable! I am surprised you have not yet put up your own church!!

      • ray

        In Genesis 3:15 did it ever say Jesus, Mary and the enemy satan? It says woman, child and the serpent? Does this mean the verse is wrong then? The Ark was in the Old Testament, and the Old Testament was a precursor of the New Testament which will be fulfilled by Jesus Christ. Please use commons sense again!

      • David Westhoff

        Please post scripture to support your claims… Funny you sound just like a JW, LDS, they are also cults like Catholics, they say the same crap, you are in great company with them, when you can answer my questions with scriptures I will deal with you till then you just dodge…no where in the bible does it say Mary is the ark (just like the movie with Tom hanks… All made up by Dan brown who hates religions!)
        You can’t post any scriptures to support what you say, get a job loser.

      • ray

        Your bottomless pit stupidity is just unbelievable. Who is the covenant between God and man?Jesus! Who is the Ark that carried the covenant between God and man? Mary! Does the bible need to explicitly state it? Is the word bible in the bible? No! So the bible itself is unbiblical! Try examining your comments, all you do is just throw away verses that contradicts your yoyo theology! And how dare you compare the Catholic church to SDA, LDS, Mormon and JW? Your are more in common with them than the Church established by Christ! Your cult reformed Christian is just another fundamentalist cult movement chain established by masons in the early 1950′s. The Catholic Church gave you the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity which is not found in the bible! But you believe it! The Catholic church gave you the bible and has preserved the Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus, but you use it. The Catholic church gave Europe prominence and has the blood of the martyrs and saints! That is what you don’t have buckwheat! And your Dan Brown argument just exposes you as a typical protestant whatever denomination that has run out of excuses! You cannot even defend your unbiblical sola scriptura! You throw out verses of the bible that the Catholic Church gave you! Laughable!

      • Phil Fox Rose

        I know you were provoked, Ray, but you’re close to getting yourself blacklisted. You can have any opinion you want, but not attack other readers.

      • ray

        Since you are an ignorant regarding what biblical typology is, this is what it means:

        Understanding of the role of Mary leads us to the Lord. Furthermore, understanding of Jesus as the Word of God should lead us to honor his Mother as the Ark of the New Covenant. This understanding is healthy for Mary always leads us to Christ: “Whatever He says to you, do it.” [John 2:5]

        “This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant.” [Hebrews 9:4]

        Now, Mary carried or CONTAINED in her womb- for 9 months- Jesus the Bread (Manna) from heaven [John 6:51]. The staff of Aaron symbolizes priesthood but Jesus is the High Priest [Heb. 4: 14-16]. The stone tablets are the commandments/words of God to Moses but Jesus is the Word of God himself became flesh [John 1:1-18].

        When the Ark came to David [2 Samuel 6-9] he was filled with awe. When Mary came to Elizabeth [Luke 1:43] she was filled with awe.

        Old Testament: “How can the ark of the Lord ever come to me?” [2 Sam.6:9]
        New Testament: “And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me?” [Luke 1:43]

        Old Testament: The ark of the Lord remained in the house of Obed-Edom… for three months… [2 Sam. 6:11]

        New Testament: And Mary stayed with her (Elizabeth) about three months, and then returned to her home [Luke 1:56]

        Old Testament: When the ark returned home and ended up in Jerusalem, God’s presence and glory is revealed in the temple [2 Sm 6:12; 1 Kgs 8:9-11]

        New Testament: Mary returned home and in Jerusalem, and she presents God incarnate (Jesus) in the temple [Lk 1:56; 2:21-22].

      • David Westhoff

        Lol that’s some wild interpretations, but it fails in etymology and hermeneutics which you clearly do not understand, and you name calling shows you’re desperate to “win” some kind of discussion trophy….it’s sad but like I stated before I’m not trying to concert you, in fact no one can convert, God does that…I engage you so that when others are searching for truth read this dialogue, they will see the satanic lies you spew.
        And talk about cherry picking…you took that to a whole new level that even gives the devil a smile.
        It’s sad you tell us that relying on the Bible for truth is wrong and then you post archaic verses taken out of context to back up your assertions! Lol so the Bible is only good when you p

      • ray

        You interpreted nothing! We explain it thru the 3 legged stool of the
        Catholic Church – Scripture, Sacred Tradition and The Magisterium. That
        is why we are not divided into thousands claiming they have the truth
        but truthfully are all in the spirit of confusion and chaos! This is the
        devils artwork! 40,000 plus denominations that has made God and His
        scriptures a mockery! You never applied anything that you have mentioned
        in your comments. All you did was apply the false logic of “what you
        see is what you get” approach, sola scriptura in the fast food lane.
        What I gave you is biblical typology, that is how you exeget and explain
        the bible. Not just selective passages to justify your false theology.

      • ray

        Part Two – Basically you interpret scriptures by hijacking verses to fit your personal beliefs. Maybe next week there’s gonna be a new one. LFMAO! You claim that you read the bible, but you don’t even know how it was compiled and its history! You claim you love Jesus, but you completely view His humanity first, not True God and True Man! You throw out arguments of the Holy Trinity, which is a Catholic doctrine, but you undermine Jesus’ equality with His Father! Now this is the heresy of fundamentalism, an utter blasphemy. That is not a surprise, because your cult hero has perverted the bible for its true purpose. That is why you have a history of perverting the bible, examples are: Geneva bible, King James bible, Schofield bible, Mormon bible, Schofield bible, Moffat, Lamsa, Godspeed, New World Translation etc. continued.

      • ray

        Part one, You interpreted nothing! We explain it thru the 3 legged stool of the Catholic Church – Scripture, Sacred Tradition and The Magisterium. That is why we are not divided into thousands claiming they have the truth but truthfully are all in the spirit of confusion and chaos! This is the devils artwork! 40,000 plus denominations that has made God and His scriptures a mockery! You never applied anything that you have mentioned in your comments. All you did was apply the false logic of “what you see is what you get” approach, sola scriptura in the fast food lane. What I gave you is biblical typology, that is how you exeget and explain the bible. Not just selective passages to justify your false theology.

      • ray

        part two, you are claiming that you use the bible, but you don’t even know how it was compiled and its history! You claim you love Jesus, but you do not completely view Him as true God and true Man! You view Him as Man first before God! You throw out arguments of the Holy Trinity, which is a Catholic doctrine, but you have undermined Christ’s equality with His Father! This is blasphemy! That is no surprise, because your cult hero’s in the 16th century has hijacked its true purpose, that is why your cult movement has a history of perverting bibles, such as the Geneva bible, King James Bible, Moffat, Lamsa, Godspeed, New World Translation, Mormon, Schofield and a lot more that cannot fill this comment space.

      • David Westhoff

        you are an asshole.. get a job crack head.. lol I can see you getting red faced angry…no job, living off my tax dollars.. what a creep you are….Bible says those that do not work should not eat.. I bet you fill your fat ass with food from my tax dollars!

      • ray

        third, part, it is good you have mentioned wild verses, but your other 3 fingers is pointing back at you ! Just look at the history of your cult’s perversion of the bible to fit their own beliefs and lifestyles this has produced wild packs of other unbiblical doctrines such as sola fide, sola scriptura, predestination, rapture, dispensationalism, tribulation, post tribulation, pre tribulation, christian zionism, Jesus and me, bible believing, prosperity gospel, televangelism etc. The joke is on your funamentalist cult that has produced abject failure throughout history. A combination of ignorance, indifference on scriptures, Sacred Tradition, genealogy, culture and predictable anti-Catholic!

      • David Westhoff

        Lol it’s the

      • ray

        Intercession of Mary and the saints in general is biblical! This is taught in the bible! It is either your blind or stupid! If the concept of a mediator to God apart from Christ is absolutely impossible for you to comprehend as a heretic sola scriptura fanatic bozo, then why would God even
        ask us to pray for one another? “And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up. and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. THE EFFECTUAL FERVENT PRAYER OF A RIGHTEOUS MAN AVAILETH MUCH IN JAMES 5:15-16. And in 1 TIM 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, INTERCESSIONS, and giving of thanks, be made for all men”. See that is the problem with cherry picked verses, you read 1 TIM 2:5, but you are deaf and blind in 1 TIM 2:1. There are a lot of verses in the bible praying to the saints in heaven! And stop your idiocy against the doctrine regarding the mediatory role on salvation played by saints and the Blessed Virgin saying that their just humans like all of us. Even the apostles, early church fathers did that. If so, these people must be hating St. Paul for saying in v14 in Romans Ch. 11: “… if somehow I can inspire those of my flesh, so that I might save
        some of them.” Same goes with Ch. 9 of Corinthians I “To the weak, I became weak in order to gain the weak; I became everything to everyone, so that I might SAVE some in every way.” What a blasphemer Paul must be
        for you and all your Sola Scriptura ilks must be! Again, you still have not proven if sola scriptura is in the bible!

      • David Westhoff

        Mat 12:46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
        Mat 12:47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
        Mat 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
        Mat 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

        Lol Jesus doesn’t even care… says nothing about mary at all except that his real brothers and mothers are his followers!

        1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

        ONLY ONE MEDIATOR! Not mary not pope not saints not angels

        Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

        Only Jesus is the way…not mary not popes not angels not saints.

        Oh you can pray to god through Jesus for others… but not TO anyone else… no where does the scriptures say to pray TO anyone else but God….why?

        Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God,

        there isn’t one verse in the Bible that says pray TO saints… besides all followers of God are saints, read…

        Php 4:21 Salute every saint in Christ Jesus. The BRETHREN which are with me greet you.
        Php 4:22 All the saints salute you, chiefly they that are of Caesar’s household.

      • ray

        Another Epic Fail! God Desires and Responds to Our Subordinate Mediation / Intercessory Prayer

        1 Tim 2:1-2 – because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul’s teaching about Jesus as the “one mediator,” Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?

        1 Tim 2:3 – because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ’s role as mediator.

        1 Tim. 2:5 – therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).

        1 Cor. 3:9 – God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

        Mark 16:20 – this is another example of how the Lord “worked with them” (“sunergountos”). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.

        Rom. 8:28 – God “works for good with” (the Greek is “sunergei eis agathon”) those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.

        2 Cor. 6:1 – “working together” (the Greek is “sunergountes”) with him, don’t accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.

        Heb. 12:1 – the “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) that we are surrounded by is a great amphitheatre of witnesses to the earthly race, and they actively participate and cheer us (the runners) on, in our race to salvation.

        1 Peter 2:5 – we are a holy priesthood, instructed to offer spiritual sacrifices to God. We are therefore subordinate priests to the Head Priest, but we are still priests who participate in Christ’s work of redemption.

        Rev. 1:6, 5:10 – Jesus made us a kingdom of priests for God. Priests intercede through Christ on behalf of God’s people.

        James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 – the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints’ prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.

        1 Tim 2:5-6 – therefore, it is because Jesus Christ is the one mediator before God that we can be subordinate mediators. Jesus is the reason. The Catholic position thus gives Jesus the most glory. He does it all but loves us so much He desires our participation.

      • ray

        Specific Instructions to Mediate and Examples of Subordinate Mediation in the New Testament

        Matt. 5:44-45 – Jesus tells us to pray for (to mediate on behalf of) those who persecute us. God instructs us to mediate.

        Matt. 17:1-3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30-31 – deceased Moses and Elijah appear at the Transfiguration to converse with Jesus in the presence of Peter, James and John (these may be the two “witnesses” John refers to in Rev. 11:3). Nothing in Scripture ever suggests that God abhors or cuts off communication between the living in heaven and the living on earth. To the contrary, God encourages communication within the communion of saints. Moses and Elijah’s appearance on earth also teach us that the saints in heaven have capabilities that far surpass our limitations on earth.

        Matt. 26:53 – Jesus says He can call upon the assistance of twelve legions of angels. If Jesus said He could ask for the assistance of angel saints, then so can we, who are called to imitate Jesus in word and in deed. And, in Matt. 22:30, Jesus says we will be “like angels in heaven.” This means human saints (like the angel saints) can be called upon to assist people on earth. God allows and encourages this interaction between his family members.

        Matt. 27:47,49; Mark 15:35-36 – the people believe that Jesus calls on Elijah for his intercession, and waits to see if Elijah would come to save Jesus on the cross.

        Matt. 27:52-53 – at Jesus’ passion, many saints were raised and went into the city to appear and presumably interact with the people, just as Jesus did after His resurrection.

        Mark 11:24 – Jesus says that whatever we ask in prayer, we will receive it. It is Jesus, and also we through Jesus, who mediate.

        John 2:3 – Jesus knew the wine was gone, but invites and responds to Mary’s intercession. God desires our lesser mediation and responds to it because He is a living and loving God.

        John 2:5 – Mary intercedes on behalf of those at the wedding feast and tells them to do whatever Jesus tells them. Because Mary is our perfect model of faith, we too intercede on behalf of our brothers and sisters.

        John 2:11 – in fact, it was Mary’s intercession that started Jesus’ ministry. His hour had not yet come, yet Jesus responds to Mary’s intercession. Even though He could do it all by Himself, God wants to work with His children.

        Acts 12:7 – an angel strikes Peter on the side and wakes him up, freeing him from prison. The angel responds to Peter’s prayers.

        Rom. 15:30 – Paul commands the family of God to pray for him. If we are united together in the one body of Christ, we can help each other.

        2 Cor. 1:11 – Paul even suggests that the more prayers and the more people who pray, the merrier! Prayer is even more effective when united with other’s prayers.

        2 Cor. 9:14 – Paul says that the earthly saints pray for the Corinthians. They are subordinate mediators in Christ.

        2 Cor. 13:7,9 – Paul says the elders pray that the Corinthians may do right and improve. They participate in Christ’s mediation.

        Gal. 6:2,10 – Paul charges us to bear one another’s burdens, and to do good to all, especially those in the household of faith.

        Eph. 6:18 – Paul commands the family of God to pray for each other.

        Eph. 6:19 – Paul commands that the Ephesians pray for him. If there is only one mediator, why would Paul ask for their prayers?

        Phil. 1:19 – Paul acknowledges power of Philippians’ earthly intercession. He will be delivered by their prayers and the Holy Spirit.

        Col. 1:3 – Paul says that he and the elders pray for the Colossians. They are subordinate mediators in the body of Christ.

        Col. 1:9 – Paul says that he and the elders have not ceased to pray for the Colossians, and that, by interceding, they may gain wisdom.

        Col. 4:4 – Paul commands the Colossians to pray for the elders of the Church so that God may open a door for the word. Why doesn’t Paul just leave it up to God? Because subordinate mediation is acceptable and pleasing to God, and brings about change in the world. This is as mysterious as the Incarnation, but it is true.

        1 Thess. 5:11 – Paul charges us to encourage one another and build one another up, in the body of Christ. We do this as mediators in Christ.

        1 Thess. 5:17 – Paul says “pray constantly.” If Jesus’ role as mediator does not apply subordinately to us, why pray at all?

        1 Thess. 5:25 – Paul commands the family of God to pray for the elders of the Church. He desires our subordinate mediation.

        2 Thess. 1:11 – Paul tells the family of God that he prays for us. We participate in Christ’s mediation because Christ desires this.

        2 Thess. 3:1 – Paul asks the Thessalonians to pray for Him, Silvanus and Timothy so that they may be delivered.

        1 Tim. 2:1-3 – Paul commands us to pray for all. Paul also states that these prayers are acceptable in the sight of God.

        2 Tim. 1:3 – Paul says “I remember you constantly in my prayers.”

        Philemon 22 – Paul is hoping through Philemon’s intercession that he may be able to be with Philemon.

        Heb. 1:14 – the author writes, “Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to serve, for the sake of those who are to obtain salvation?”

        Hebrews 13:18-19 – the author strongly urges the Hebrews to pray for the elders so that they act desirably in all things.

        James 5:14-15- James says the prayer of the priests over the sick man will save the sick man and forgive his sins. This is a powerful example of men forgiving sins and bringing a person to salvation with the sacrament of the sick.

        James 5:16 – James instructs us to confess our sins to one another and pray for one another so that we may be healed.

        James 5:17-18 – James refers to God’s response to Elijah’s fervent prayer for no rain. He is teaching us about the effectiveness of our earthly mediation.

        1 John 5:14-15 – John is confident that God will grant us anything we ask of God according to His will.

        1 John 5:16-17 – our prayers for others even calls God to give life to them and keep them from sinning. Our God is a personal and living God who responds to our prayers.

        3 John 2 – John prays for Gaius’ health and thus acts as a subordinate mediator.

        Rev. 1:4 – this verse shows that angels (here, the seven spirits) give grace and peace. Because grace and peace only come from God, the angels are acting as mediators for God.

        Rev. 5:8 – the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven. (The “24 elders” are said to refer to the people of God – perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles – and the “four living creatures” are said to refer to the angels.)

        Rev. 6:9-11 – the martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood “on those who dwell upon the earth.” These are “imprecatory prayers,” which are pleas for God’s judgment (see similar prayers in Psalm 35:1; 59:1-17; 139:19; Jer. 11:20; 15:15; 18:19; Zech.1:12-13). This means that the saints in heaven are praying for those on earth, and God answers their prayers (Rev. 8:1-5). We, therefore, ask for their intercession and protection.

        Rev. 8:3-4 – in heaven an angel mingles incense with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne of God, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. These prayers “rise up” before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his children’s requests, whether made by his children on earth or in heaven.

        Old Testament

        Gen. 20:17 – God responds to Abraham’s intercession and heals Abimelech, and also his wife and slaves.

        Gen. 27:29; Num. 24:9 – blessed be everyone who blesses you. If we bless others in prayer, we are also blessed.

        Exodus 32:11-14, 30-34; 34:9; Num. 14:17-20; 21:7-9 – these are many examples of God’s response to Moses’ saintly intercession.

        1 Sam. 12:23 – Samuel says that he would be sinning against God if he didn’t continue to intercede for the people of Israel.

        1 Sam. 28:7-20 – the deceased prophet Samuel appears and converses with Saul, which is confirmed by Sirach 46:13,20).

        1 Sam. 28:7; 1 Chron. 10:13-14 – Saul practiced necromancy. He used a medium, not God, to seek the dead and was therefore condemned. Saul’s practice is entirely at odds with the Catholic understanding of saintly mediation, where God is the source and channel of all communication, and who permits His children to participate in this power.

        2 Chron. 30:27 – the prayers of the priests and Levites came before God’s holy habitation in heaven and were answered.

        Tobit 12:12,15 – angels place Tobit and Sarah’s prayers before the Holy One. This teaches us that the angels are also our subordinate mediators. We pray to the angels to take up our prayers to God.

        Job 42:7-9 – Job prayed for three friends in sin and God listened to Job as a result of these prayers.

        Psalm 34:7 – the angel of the Lord delivers those who fear him.

        Psalm 91:11 – God will give His angels charge of you, to guard you in all your ways.

        Psalm 103:20-21; 148:1-2 – we praise the angels and ask for their assistance in doing God’s will.

        Psalm 141:2 – David asks that his prayer be counted as incense before God. The prayers of the saints have powerful effects.

        Isaiah 6:6-7 – an angel touches Isaiah’s lips and declares that his sin is forgiven. The angel is a subordinate mediator of God who effects the forgiveness of sins on God’s behalf.

        Jer. 7:16 – God acknowledges the people’s ability to intercede, but refuses to answer due to the hardness of heart.

        Jer. 15:1 – the Lord acknowledges the intercessory power of Moses and Samuel.

        Jer. 37:3 – king Zedekiah sends messengers to ask Jeremiah to intercede for the people, that he might pray to God for them.

        Jer. 42:1-6 – all the people of Israel went before Jeremiah asking for his intercession, that he would pray to the Lord for them.

        Baruch 3:4 – Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. They can intercede on behalf of the people of God.

        Dan. 9:20-23 – Daniel intercedes on behalf of the people of Israel confessing both his sins and the sins of the people before God.

        Zech. 1:12-13 – an angel intercedes for those in Judea and God responds favorably.

        2 Macc. 15:12-16 – the high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah were deceased for centuries, and yet interact with the living Judas Maccabeas and pray for the holy people on earth.

      • ray

        Veneration / Honor of the Saints in scriptures

        Matt. 18:10 – the angels in heaven always behold the face of God. We venerate them for their great dignity and union with God.

        Matt. 15:4; Luke 18:20; Eph. 6:2-3 Exodus 20:12; Lev. 19:3; Deut. 5:16 – we are instructed to honor our father and mother.

        Luke 1:28 – the angel Gabriel venerates Mary by declaring to her “Hail, full of grace.” The heavenly angel honors the human Mary, for her perfection of grace exceeds that of the angels.

        Romans 13:7 – we are to give honor where honor is due. When we honor God’s children, we honor God Himself, for He is the source of all honor.

        1 Cor. 4:16 – the most important form of veneration of the saints is “imitating” the saints, as Paul commands us to do.

        1 Cor. 11:1 – again, Paul says, “Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.” The ultimate objective of veneration is imitation.

        Phil. 2:25-29 – Paul teaches us to honor Epaprhoditus who almost died for the faith. How much more honor is owed to the saints that did die for the faith!

        Phil. 3:17 – Paul says to imitate him and others, which is the goal of veneration. Veneration is not worship.

        1 Thess. 1:6 – Paul says to the Thessalonians, “You became imitators of us and of the Lord.” This is the goal of veneration.

        2 Thess. 3:7 – Paul says that the Thessalonians should imitate him and the other bishops.

        Hebrews 3:3 – Jesus is worthy of “more” glory and honor than Moses. This does not mean that the saints are worthy of no glory and honor. Instead, it proves that saintly people are worthy of glory and honor out of God’s goodness.

        Heb. 6:12 – the author teaches us to be imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

        Heb. 13:7 – we must imitate the faith of our faithful leaders. We ask for their intercession and venerate them for their holiness.

        James 5:10-11 – James teaches us to take heart in the examples of the prophets and Job, who endured suffering.

        1 Peter 2:17 – Peter teaches us to honor all men, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the emperor. Don’t those living with Christ in heaven deserve honor? Catholics believe they do, and honor them with special feast days, just as we honor those living by celebrating their birthdays.

        Gen. 19:1 – Lot venerates the two angels in Sodom, bowing himself with his face to the ground.

        Gen. 42:6 – Joseph’s brothers bow before Joseph with the face to the ground. This is veneration, not worship.

        Exodus 28:2 – it is especially important to honor religious leaders. Sacred garments for Aaron give him dignity and honor.

        Lev. 19:32- we should also honor “the face of an old man.” When the elderly die in Christ, we should continue honoring them, because death does not separate them from us or the love of Christ.

        1 Sam. 28:14 – Saul bows down before Samuel with his face to the ground in veneration.

        2 Chron. 32:33 – Hezekiah was honored at his death. We honor our brothers and sisters in the Lord.

        Sir. 44:1-2 – we should praise and give honor to those who the Lord apportioned great glory. It is our family in Christ.

        V. Posture in Prayer, Veneration and Worship

        Deut. 5:9 – God’s command, “you shall not bow down to them” means “do not worship them.” But not all bowing is worship. Here God’s command is connected to false worship.

        Rev. 3:9 – Jesus said people would bow down before the faithful members of the church of Philadelphia. This bowing before the faithful is not worship, just as kissing a picture of a family member is not worship.

        Gen. 19:1 – Lot bowed down to the ground in veneration before two angels in Sodom.

        Gen. 24:52 – Abraham’s servant bowed himself to the earth before the Lord.

        Gen. 42:6 – Joseph’s brothers bow before Joseph with the face to the ground.

        Jos. 5:14 – Joshua fell to the ground prostrate in veneration before an angel.

        1 Sam. 28:14 – Saul bows down before Samuel with his face to the ground in honor and veneration.

        1 Kings 1:23 – the prophet Nathan bows down before King David.

        2 Kings 2:15 – the sons of the prophets bow down to Elisha at Jericho.

        1 Chron. 21:21 – Ornan the Jebusite did obeisance to king David with his face to the ground.

        1 Chron. 29:20 – Israelites bowed down to worship God and give honor to the king.

        2 Chron. 29:29-30 – King Hezekiah and the assembly venerate the altar by bowing down in worship before the sin offerings.

        Tobit 12:16 – Tobiah and Tobit fell down to the ground in veneration before the angel Raphael.

        Judith 14:7 – Achior the Ammonite kneels before Judith venerating her and praising God.

        Psalm 138:2 – David bows down before God’s Holy Temple.

        Dan. 2:46 – the king fell down on his face paying homage to Daniel and commands that an offering be made to him.

        Dan. 8:17 – Daniel fell down prostrate in veneration before the angel Gabriel.

        1 Macc. 4:40,55 – Judas and the faithful fell face down to the ground to praise heaven and worship God.

        2 Macc. 10:4,26; 13:12 – Maccabeus and his followers fall down prostrate praying to God.

      • ray

        We are One Family in Christ in Heaven and on Earth in scripture – Intercession, mediation.

        Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family (“Catholic”) in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the “communion of saints.” There cannot be a “communion” if there is no union. Loving beings, whether on earth or in heaven, are concerned for other beings, and this concern is reflected spiritually through prayers for one another.

        Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 – this family is in Jesus Christ, the head of the body, which is the Church.

        1 Cor. 12:12,27; Rom. 12:5; Col. 3:15; Eph. 4:4 – we are the members of the one body of Christ, supernaturally linked together by our partaking of the Eucharist.

        Rom. 8:35-39 – therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.

        Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 – Jesus converses with “deceased” Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.

        Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 – God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.

        Luke 15:7,10 – if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.

        John 15:1-6 – Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. The good branches are not cut off at death. They are alive in heaven.

        1 Cor. 4:9 – because we can become a spectacle not only to men, but to angels as well, this indicates that angels are aware of our earthly activity. Those in heaven are connected to those on earth.

        1 Cor. 12:26 – when one member suffers, all suffer. When one is honored, all rejoice. We are in this together as one family.

        1 Cor 13:12; 1 John 3:2 – now we see in a mirror dimly, but in heaven we see face to face. The saints are more alive than we are!

        Heb. 12:1: we are surrounded by a great glory cloud (shekinah) of witnesses. The “cloud of witnesses” refers to the saints who are not only watching us from above but cheering us on in our race to heaven.

        1 Peter 2:9; Rev. 20:6 – we are a royal family of priests by virtue of baptism. We as priests intercede on behalf of each other.

        2 Peter 1:4 – since God is the eternal family and we are His children, we are partakers of His divine nature as a united family.

        1 Cor. 1:2; Rom. 1:7 – we are called to be saints. Saints refer to both those on earth and in heaven who are in Christ. Proof:

        Acts 9:13,32,41; 26:10; 1 Cor. 6:1-2; 14:33; 2 Cor. 1:1; 8:4; 9:1-2; 13:13; Rom. 8:27; 12:23; 15:25,26, 31; 16:2,15; Eph. 1:1,15,18; 3:8; 5:3; 6:18; Phil. 1:1; 4:22; Col 1:2,4,26; 1 Tm 5:10; Philemon 1:5,7; Heb. 6:10; 13:24; Jude 1:3; Rev. 11:18; 13:7; 14:12; 16:6; 17:6;18:20,24; Rev 19:8; 20:9 – in these verses, we see that Christians still living on earth are called “saints.”

        Matt. 27:52; Eph. 2:19; 3:18; Col. 1:12; 2 Thess. 1:10; Rev. 5:8; 8:3-4; 11:18; 13:10 – in these verses, we also see that “saints” also refer to those in heaven who united with us.

        Dan. 4:13,23; 8:23 – we also see that the angels in heaven are also called “saints.” The same Hebrew word “qaddiysh” (holy one) is applied to both humans and angels in heaven. Hence, there are angel saints in heaven and human saints in heaven and on earth. Loving beings (whether angels or saints) are concerned for other beings, and prayer is the spiritual way of expressing that love.

      • David Westhoff

        Bible also say Stephen was full of grace, do Stephen was sinless too! Lol fool

      • ray

        Stephen is described as “filled with grace” (pleres charitos) in the present tense. His state of grace is rendered as momentary. It does not constitute a permanent state of being in the past, present, and future of his existence. The expression ‘kecharitomene’ (past-perfect) actually describes Mary as “perfectly graced” and “completed by grace” with a permanent result from an indefinite time before the angel’s greeting (cf. Lk 1:30). This is the original Greek meaning given by St. Luke in his gospel. The expression “full of grace” comes from the Latin ‘gratia plena’ produced by St. Jerome in his creation of the Latin Vulgate translated from the original Greek. No human creature other than Mary is described in the Bible as “perfectly graced” and “completed by grace”. The expression “full of grace” denotes what St. Luke meant when he wrote his gospel in the Greek. Mary is addressed by the angel according to her permanent, immaculate spiritual state which her given name has significantlly been substituted for.

      • David Westhoff

        Talk about cherry picking, now you cherry pick whole translations…and you couldn’t even use the catholic translation to get what you wanted…sorry I only use the Geneva Bible, and it doesn’t say what you posted….in fact Latin is no good cause the Bible was written in Greek and Hebrew, I study Greek and Hebrew and I study hermeneutics and etymology, thing you clearly don’t study and therefore rendering your translations and failed interpretations useless. What’s funny is you deny everything except my claims you don’t have a job and live off welfare…which means I have you nailed…but I refuse to argue with children…and like I said I am not trying to convert you and your lies…you go ahead and ignore Gods Word, I will look down from heaven on your cries from hell and just shake my head at your pathetic position…I guarantee you will keep posting lies prove me right!!

      • ray

        Part two, “Chaire kecharitomene.” St. Jerome’s translation reads: “Ave gratia plena.” The words “chaire” and “ave” mean “hail”.

      • ray

        What are you talking about, your rambling again with your cherry picked verses – Jesus said “BEHOLD” to His mom!

      • David Westhoff

        Go read a dictionary , behold means observe or see….more lies from you who’s father is Satan.

      • Phil Fox Rose

        You’re getting yourself blacklisted, David Westhoff. You have repeatedly insulted other commenters, and with vulgarity. You can have any opinion you want, but not attack other readers.4

      • David Westhoff

        you need to understand what intercession means
        in·ter·ces·sion (ntr-sshn)n.
        1. Entreaty in favor of another, especially a prayer or petition to God in behalf of another.

      • ray

        Another kindergarten interpretation, sheesh. Typical bible thumper! Luke chapter 11 verse 27-28 As he said these things, a woman in the crowd spoke out to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you and the breasts at which you nursed!”28 But he replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it!”. In the above passages, Jesus, as God and being God, educated the woman and all of us that we should look at Mary, first and foremost, as “those who hear the word of God and obey it!” BECAUSE MARY HEARD THE WORD OF GOD AND OBEYED IT! Since you claim to be a bible reader only, you are suppose to understand this phrase. Mary said in her maginficat “all generations will call me blessed”, now is this a contradiction to Apostle Luke’s writings, if Jesus is rebuking her title of “blessed”? Your such an airheaded prick! Try reading again LUKE 1:26-38 and LUKE 1:41-45 and see what an idiot you are! AND
        BECAUSE MARY HEARD, OBEYED, BELIEVED AND KEPT THE WORD OF GOD, AND
        INSPIRED BY THE HOLY CHILD IN HER WOMB (ISAIAH 9:6), SHE PRAISED GOD FOR
        MAKING HER BLESSED FOR ALL GENERATIONS! Try reading again her Magnificat in LUKE 1:46-49 and see how completely dumbfounded you are! “Blessed rather are those (Virgin Mary) who hear the word of God and obey it (cf LK 11:28, emphasis mine)!” – Only the wicked men will dare say Jesus did not do much honour to Mary in LK 11:28
        1. If Jesus said these: MT 15:4 “For God said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and ‘Whoever curses father or mother shall die.’”
        MK 10:19 “You know the commandments:
        ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; you shall not defraud; honor your father and your mother.’”
        2. And if Jesus did not come to abolish the commandment but to fulfill them:
        MT 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.”
        3. And if Jesus is not lying: 1 PT 2:21-22 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example that you should follow in his footsteps. “He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.”
        4. Then, Jesus did not and cannot dishonor His mother otherwise He will be breaking His own law and deceit will be found in his mouth.

        Conclusion:

        Therefore, only the wicked men dare say Jesus did not do much honour to Mary in LK 11:28!

      • David Westhoff

        Indeed this was a perfect time to say something great about Mary, but he takes Mary out of the conversation stating that blessings could put in a better place…also there’s a party and the apostles tell Jesus his mother Mary is outside..lol and Jesus days who cares!

      • ray

        You are a real phony when it comes to scriptures. Read the Wedding at Cana in John chapter 2 verse 1 to 11. See how Mary intervened in Jesus’ first miracle, and see how stupid your analogy is!

      • David Westhoff

        Mary didnt do anything Jesus did it, he made the wine… More wild interpretations….look I got a job and family….I got better things to do than argue with a heretic…go now to your pope, and puss off God even more, and get off the glass pipe and get a job.

      • Phil Fox Rose

        Ray, you’ve been blacklisted too. I just saw the racist comments and direct insults in recent comments from you.

      • ray

        In 2 Timothy chapter 3 verse 16 All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, is there any word here that says scripture only as authority you brain dead midget? And how was sola scriptura possible when Jesus never said that Himself!!

      • ray

        Your 2 Timothy 3:16 argument is old, fat and spent, laughable! Is there any word here that says scripture ALONE or ONLY as the only sole rule authority? There is nothing wrong reading, and teaching from the bible, but it is clear that the verse says nothing about a book as authority!

      • David Westhoff

        I new you would hate scriptures from God…anyways I’m not trying convert you, you clearly hate the Bible, disrespect Jesus by denying all sons were forgiven by Jesus on the cross, again get off crack, and get a job, quit living off the government!

      • ray

        I don’t hate scriptures, I hate sola scriptura because it is unbiblical, unhistorical, illogical, inconsistent, impractical and improbable! Another epic fail!

      • Phil Fox Rose

        You’re getting yourself blacklisted, David Westhoff. You have repeatedly insulted other commenters, and with vulgarity. You can have any opinion you want, but not attack other readers.2

      • ray

        Second part of Oral Tradition. How could this be possible books back then were heavy and big, the printing press was just invented in the sixteenth century, and what are you trying to imply if scripture alone is the rule of instruction? Then all of their books would just be mostly from the old testament. This is another system fail in your part, you are outed already as a self proclaimed christian which in truth just a plain heretic. All your argument has fallen flat in your face!

      • David Westhoff

        You need to get off crack and get a job…

      • JuliePurple

        David, a word to the wise: no matter where a person stands on an issue, insults do not help the case. Just sayin’.

      • Phil Fox Rose

        You’re getting yourself blacklisted, David Westhoff. You have repeatedly insulted other commenters, and with vulgarity. You can have any opinion you want, but not attack other readers.

      • David Westhoff

        your pal threw the first punches…but then I didn’t realize this was a catholic blog… no wonder…again I’, not trying to convert like ol’ ray is. I’m setting the records straight, the flippant lies from this guy is beyond reproach!
        Busted halo indeed!

      • Phil Fox Rose

        David, whatever the reason, vulgar insults are still not welcome, but I explored further and saw some of the things he’d said too. You’re right, he threw the first “punches” and repeatedly crossed the line. He got himself blocked, just so you know.

      • truthmatters

        Jesus is the High Priest you right there and that did away with the priesthood that Catholicism loves .1 Tim. 4:1-5: “Now the Spirit
        expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to
        deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their
        own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry,

      • truthmatters

        Another catholic fabrication it reads God is cursing womanhood “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring
        and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel.” Unto
        the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy
        conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire
        shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

      • JuliePurple

        Oink, oink, oink.

      • FaithoftheFathers

        David if you are like most Christians you would agree with the statement; Mary is the mother of Jesus. I’m sure you would also agree that God is comprised of three Divine beings; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
        Jesus is the only portion of the Trinity who was both fully human, because he was born of Mary, and fully Divine because Jesus is also God. So,it is not incorrect for the Catholic Church to say Mary is the Mother of God since Jesus is God.
        The Catholic Church has never claimed that Mary is the Mother of God the Father or Holy Spirit. The Church only claims she is the mother of Jesus.
        Before converting to the Catholic Church I struggled with this saying because I only heard “Mother of God.” Once I took the time to study what the Catholic Church actually teaches regarding this saying, it made perfect sense. This can also be said for the misconceptions most protesters have against the Church.
        If you take the time to learn what the Catholic Church teaches with an open heart you will be amazed how quickly most of your arguments will vanish. But this journey can only happen with a loving open heart not a heardened one…

      • JuliePurple

        Good explanation, Faith, but you forgot to add in your last line, “a loving heart and a strong tolerance for cognitive dissonance”. The cognitive dissonance is addressed by the phrase, “take it on faith”.

      • FaithoftheFathers

        Ah I see where your coming from… I think you forgot the word blind in your addition! LOL
        Sorry but the faith you are mockingly refering to is not required…

      • JuliePurple

        Hi, Faith
        Actually, the way I always heard it when I was growing up was “take it on faith”; the expression was used for a lot of things that didn’t have a rational explanation. Truthfully, I wasn’t trying to mock. I was just pointing out that an open heart isn’t really enough for understanding if you require that things make sense.

      • noni

        Up until now you haven’t discovered yet that this bible you are talking about is a piece of “scrap”? I highly recommend reading the book “Caesar’s Messiah ” as food for thought. Just read it. If you don’t like it, give it to a friend. At least by reading it, it will give you something to ponder.

      • truthmatters

        All you said it’s a fabrication of Catholicism.Mary is the Ark of the Covenant of the New Testament!..Blaspheme That Jesus you confused person..God exist before Mary she not his mother and Jesus never calls her mother .He says woman who God used as a vessel to comes into his creation

      • David Westhoff

        You don’t think is correct.

      • JuliePurple

        David, I think you’re too nice a guy to “detest all evangelicals”; I hope what you mean is that you detest their belief system…? For myself, I know several people that I am very fond of, but whose belief systems I consider absolutely loopy. We try to stick to subjects that don’t give rise to discord, though we do tease each other about the rest.

      • David Westhoff

        You’re right I’m sorry I wrote it that way, I detest the beliefs….

      • JuliePurple

        Eh, no worries. I’m glad to know it’s just the beliefs.
        And I know it can be tricky expressing *exactly* what you mean, in a way that is clear.

      • truthmatters

        Hey they now call her co redeemer .They are So lost .I was raised in the darkness praise God I read the word and got saved born again through faith in Jesus sacrifice

      • ray

        We hold Sacred Traditions since ancient times, that is how we respect God. We do not create or make up theologies that divides, conquer and mock God, Sacred Tradition. And whose theology says that God Jesus would not need a sinless vehicle to be born? Where did that idiotic belief came from. Jesus, Mary came from the line of Shem. They are the remnants of Adam and Eve. Again my question to you is this, How will the Holy Spirit enter Mary’s womb if Mary was tainted by original or any kind of sin in her body? Mary also took care of Jesus when He was a child. She breastfed her for months. Does this mean that Jesus drank her sinful milk? We base our theologies on scripture, divine revelation and sacred traditions? Where do you get yours? Fundamentalism now evangelicalism is established by masons. That is why you have a very demented view of Mary!!

      • truthmatters

        You make up and follow everything that Catholicism tell you .God Word is the arbitrator of truth and you walk contrary to it .Jesus said to Satan it is written .Jesus used scripture to proclaim truth . The offense is God word to you .

      • ray

        Part 2 will be continued I am having problems uploading… Paul’s intent in writing those words was to

      • ray

        Second part, And you also need to learn the word “Kecharitomene” a title uttered by Angel Gabriel addressed to Mary, this greek word means “always”, past, present and future – Full of grace (charitoo). Mary is no normal woman she was prophesied in Genesis, and her exaltation is in her Magnificat, in Elizabeth’s address to her, and in Revelation chapter 12, as the woman wearing a crown having given birth to male child that would rule the nations. One thing you have to understand that Christ’s life are all eternal events (birth, suffering and death) that is why Angel Gabriel said that specific word “Kecharitomene”.

      • noni

        Ops! At the end of the last line of your post, you said “mary the mother of god”. So your god has a mother. Who is the father? This is crazy. Imagine, a god with human mother. If you follow the reasoning of a rational mind, based on your claim that mary is the mother of god, and since your god includes the father, the son, and the holy spirit, mary is also the mother of the father and holy spirit. Come on man, get real, use your head.

      • Amy Nicole Acker-Mobley

        How do you know she sinned- last time I checked you were not there nor do you know her mind. Also you are not God or Mary and that is between them. Have you studied anything other than the Bible? It seems to me that you are spouting lots of canned ideas and just putting a bible quote to make yourself feel like you know what you are talking about. I invite you to read some Dr. Scott Hahn and then come back to commenting. Also check out an RCIA class at your local catholic church where you can ask questions and make sure that your facts are true. You might not agree with everything you hear but at least you will have a basic education on what we believe.

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